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  #31 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2004, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Good point. Life is too short. What else is there in life but family. I still remember some of the great trips I took with my kids when they were small.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2004, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Hey Thea if you think your going to get culture in some of these islands think again. There is more culture in The great U.S.A. These places are for sitting back and relaxing.
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Old May 1st, 2004, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

eyeguy, I believe Thea was referring to the diversified cultures, not culture as in class exposure. If one tries they will see a variety of cultures, each island is different. Barbados is nothing like Roatan and Aruba nothing like St. Kitts. To us this is part of crusing or traveling to other countries.

NMNita
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Old May 1st, 2004, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Nina, guess what? your reasoning is rather insteresting to say the least: 1-could not afford to cruise so we are jealous: well you are right, we could not afford to cruise when our kids were young cause we were a 1 income family which you are not as you teach 3 classes. We were also very busy with swim team (year around) football and baseball which led to a full college scholarship and other kid activities. Our very few vacations consisted of camping with our kids, 3 day swim meets and visiting family and friends throughout the USA. We did leave the kids every year for at least a few days. We had a baby sitting club back in the 60s. Our neighbors exchanged child care so we could get away without the kids. If we could have afforded cruising it would still never had entered our minds. 2-we don't have small children and don't know the value of fabulous vacations: we did know and we vacationed with kids, mommy and daddy and grandparents and a teen baby sitter sometimes. We. We did weeks in Tahoe, San Diego, DC,etc. As for San Franciso and the Caribbean offering the same cultural education: I really don't think so: we lived 5 years in the bay area plus we visit every year . Cultural diversity yes, the same as the islands, I certainly do not think so. One of the best things about life in New Mexico is the cultural diversity, but is it the same as the islands or foreign countries? Of course not!!

Nita
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2004, 09:03 AM
Thea
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

I didn't bring up the point about seeing different cultures, bahamabound did, in the message before mine. I certainly wasn't saying you go to the Caribbean rather than the "good old USA" to experience different cultures. I WAS saying that small children in strollers are not going to absorb much of anything, and the parents are going to have less opportunity to absorb much themselves because they're so busy minding the kids in the strollers. I'm not kid- or family-togetherness bashing. I find the difference in travelling families of today, and those of my early days (I'm 52) astonishing. We took day trips as a family and were totally disciplined and well mannered. I got a great deal out of those excursions even though we didn't have a lot and only took part in activities that were free or low cost (no cruises or air travel, lots of museums and historical homes and hiking and learning opps). No my dear ninafromct, I'm not in the least jealous of the children or family-togetherness of today. But when I'm surrounded by bored children in their strollers, and the tiny ones in their carry-cradles, screaming their lungs out, I can't help but think "are they really having a good time"? Or the kids running around in the Garden Cafe, or crying and whining thru a show. And I won't even go into the experience we had on our January cruise on the Dawn, with the older kids raising holy heck every night in the room next to ours, while their single father spent his time in the casino.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2004, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

No Swimmys Due to infections caused by waste

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2004, 02:55 PM
Thea
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Thanks Asealady! Have a good day!
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2004, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Jeez louise ninafromct, do you have stock in a sourball company? You certainly don't like to hear other people's opinions do you? No, I am NOT concerned about the parents' enjoyment, or about the kids enjoyment, I'm concerned about said folks impacting MY enjoyment. Think that's pretty natural. If it's selfishness that motivates me to want a nice cruise when I've spent thousands of dollars for that right, well yeah, guess I'm selfish. You sound very much the quintessential Woman of the World. Well honey, you can have it.........You are the kind of person who makes message boards less than a fun forum. Lighten up!!!!
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2004, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

AHHHHH u 'guys' are a 'riot!!!!! Laughted till I almost cried.....but I am going to watch carefully for 'things' when I swim from now on. Kiddies (luv 'em - had 'em) and didn't let them swim till potty & 'peeing' in pools trained. They won't suffer believe me if they just swim when they are a trifle older - mine swim like fish today... That said I agree with the special diapers though for those who want the 'wee' ones to swim earlier but NOT on cruise ships in what should be adult pools. If they use the kiddie pools at least parents can decide for or against - lets give the paying adults somewhere to swim unencumbered by ... & kids - I want a holiday from them as do many if not most and that includes swimming without them (gee I remember fondly getting splashed, drinks dumped on my lap, not being able to hear much except screaming, being bumped when reading in my lounge (when I finally found one that kids weren't jumping on and ruining) plus my hat being knocked off and that was just the 2 yr olds...OK just kidding but u get the idea.. Happy cruisin'!
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2004, 08:49 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Thea, sorry I screwed up last night on who said what, guess it was old age again or 1 too many glasses of wine; maybe both. As for Nina, as for what zeno said: for someone so wealthy and very culturally educated it is amazing you cruise inside cabins, have mentioned on many occassions you had to stick with NCL cause you had already purchased the air and spending 11.00 plus to use the internet blew your mind. Give it up and stop being so defensive? Isn't that your bag, not mine. Can you refer to one thread where I have said children should not cruise? I have indicated and will not change my mind even if it does blow your mind, that I don't quite understand the reason for choosing cruising for toddlers. Older kids, hey whatever is your choice is fine with me if your kids are well behaved. I do have a little concern when cruisers want the cruise line to entertain their kids most of the time. What happened to the age when kids entertained themselves,especially when they are middle school and older ages? I also have said previously I don't understand introducing your kids to so much stuff that ther is nothing to look forward to, but I guess if you own or owned a home in Europe you have had the best of every world, though I really do doubt what you say. The reason I doubt this is you can't see the difference in the cultural lives on varies islands indicating you live in a glass bowl or really haven't seen the world, I have. My husband worked for one of our greatest Presidents, we have traveled extentively, though never owned property in Europe unless you are referring to a time share, our kids have been very lucky in many ways; one being your priorty; money and still non are snobs, nor are we. We can have fun camping, cruising,staying at the Holiday Inn or splurging for a suite in Vegas. Never have we judged anyone by their education, the money they have or success. I care about being around good people, honest people and fun people; I want to cruise with zeno and most of the others on this board.

NMNIta
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2004, 09:09 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

to shadow99

I am 14 years old and I should be able to go in the hot tub with my friends with out our parents and hot tubs are not dangerous unless your under 7 years old I go in my hot tub all the time with out my parents and most deaths in hot tubs are drunk people who don't know when to get out
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2004, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

SSNorway, I don't really think there is much concern about deaths to teens using hot tubs, but the policy on most cruise ships is: no adult, no hot tub: no adult, no spa. It might not seem fair, but there are reasons for the rules and rules need to be followed even when we think they are stupid (some are, I agree)

NMNita
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd, 2004, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

.....but not the one about swimmies in the pools, right? I think that's a good rule!! And SSNorway, don't take the hot tub rule personally. You sound mature for your age but I've seen young teens horsing around in the hot tubs and held my breath waiting for disaster. NMNita, Zeno, Asealady and I will accompany you and we'll all have a good time!!!!
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd, 2004, 10:06 AM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

You know what? If you all stopped answering this post, it would go down to the bottom and we would not have to put up with "her" stuff anymore.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd, 2004, 12:54 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

After reading this thread I felt like I need to get my $.02 in. I personally think that cruises (unless a DIsney Cruise) should be for families with children older than 8 years old.

Background:
(1) My husband and I have had an income which would have allowed us to take any of our 4 children on a cruise from the time they were born. That would have included bringing a nanny with us to watch them.
(2) We took many great family vacations to Disneyland - Disneyworld - the ocean - and places that are child oriented. We did not bring a nanny with us because we were on the vacation for the children.
(3) My husband and I did not take our first cruise until our children were teenagers and were able to stay home under family and neighbor supervision. We took our first cruise as a couple to see what a cruise could offer for teenagers.
(4) My children have since been cruising and they love it!!!!! They don't feel like they missed out because they didn't go as a child and get dropped in the kids club while the parents had their fun. Going on the Dawn next month with my daughters.
(5) Children under 6 years of age don't really remember anything about their paster vacations as they get older. They don't remember the cultural experiences until they are older and those experiences have meaning.
(6) We have never put our non potty trained children into a public pool that wasn't a kiddy pool. Why take the health risk.

I don't understand why children have to be "little adults" so parents can have fun. They do grow up and with proper upbringing become great "adults" that will love and appprciate the time you have spent as a family and the cultural experiences that you have shared with them.

I really don't understand parents to find that the ship and the crew are their babysitters. Where were the parents when children go running down the hallways and playing with the elevators. Where are they when the let their children scream in the dinningrooms rather than going back to their staterooms and getting room service. What was the teaching moment there. Last year on the Dawn there was a group of children that took great pleasure in running down the hall and ringing the doorbells on all of the suite doors. We got so tired of getting up and answering the doorbell. And don't get me started about children having water fights in the hottubs while parents wish to get in.

I know that I will be a grandmother someday soon and I hope that I have taught my children that there are vacations for young children and families and vacations for older children and families and couples.

You are never too old to cruise. I say wait until you can enjoy it and so can your fellow cruisers.

My $.02 worth

Marilynd
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd, 2004, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Marilynd - BRAVO to you. I am in total agreement. On the other hand I feel sorry for the country of Italy!
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd, 2004, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Nina

I agree that the concept of Disney being a cruise ship for families is great. On Disney Cruise line you can expect to see children. It's great that Disney caters to families.

I have never seen a child under the age of 6 that would beg to spend time away from their parents. Maybe kids that young who are use to being in a daycare program at home. Most todlers want to be with their parents all the time and they should. Nothing substitutes for the care of a loving parent 24/7. A cruise to me seems like it you be more fun when you can be with your children and not on the deck sunning yourself while your todler or young child is in some kind of program. TMaybe Disneyworld or Disney land should offer a potion of their parks were "crew" members babysit children so parents can ride the rides without the children. We spend many years on the Fantasyland rides and the Toontown rides with our children under six. On a cruise you don't go to the Kids program with the kids. That is my point.

When they are older than six they have learned proper maners at dinner, they know how to relate with other children and adults and they are much easier to discipline if they get out of hand. We felt that children younger than 12 would just not fine anything on a cruise that would be fun for them. They have all agreed. They love the teen programs on cruises. They are old enough to appreciate it.

The cruiselines have to go for the family market because the cost of a cruise is in most cases cheaper than any other vacation. This is a good thing for us with older children.
It's just sad to me that little children get taken on the parent's vacation because they can go for less money.

Wouldn't a child under six find a simple vacation close to home fun as long as both parents were along and devoted to them having fun. My children found that having mom and dad home during the day on Holidays and on weekends to play in the yard or go to the park a vacation. They wanted more than that as they got older.

Marilyn
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd, 2004, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

I think that we have gotten beyond the original posting above. It was about diapers in the pools. In my posting I agreed that children above the age of 6 can have a great vacation and remember it as a highlight of their lives. Perhaps children at 5 also, just not younger than that. I put my children in a preschool at the age of 5 because of the learning that comes with playing with other children. Their class was only three days a week for a couple of hours. I agree that if the childrens programs on the ships can be run as a the fun learning experience that Nina has mentioned above that is great for children for a few hours. But don't they have these programs run all day so that parents and children in some way take a separate cruise? And why don't cruise ships have activities that these children can do with their parents? Why not a separate dinningroom for parents and young children? It is nice to see that some of the cruise lines offer shore excursions that are family oriented. Again these excursions are for children who are beyond the todler stage.

I say that its that very young children, todlers and infants that don't belong on a cruise. Why should diapers in the pool even be an issue?

There is an 8 year span between my children. My oldest child had to wait until she was out of high school before the first family cruise. She has cruised a lot since and is ok with that. She was happy with the trips where we could all go where it was expected that young children would be there. (Disney, etc.). I don't remember eating at a restaurant at a Disney property where I felt like strollers were out of place. In the fine dinning of a cruise ship, they are certainly out of place. If you must take the infants and todlers, try room service or the buffet.

Maybe children older than 5 want to be with other children, but todlers don't. On a cruise I saw a baby in a stroller next to parents who were sun bathing. Can you even imagine how hot that infant was. That to me is child abuse. But I'm sure that the parents were enjoying their cruise. Diapers in the pool, no way !!!!!!!!
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd, 2004, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Marilyn, there is no way we will win this arguement. Most of us can see 2 sides to all situations and though we may believe our views are right for us we acknowdelge there is an other side. Poor Nina just can't see anyway but her way. Can you just imagine how bored the kids will be when they spend part of the summer in the family home in Italy and the rest at the shore without a kids club for them? Maybe her kids loved the kids program because it was better than staying with her? I know this isn't nice, but I just have trouble trying to understand why parents do introduce kids to so much so young and then expect the perfect kids program to keep them happy> If this really was the great vacation for the very young I would think they would be content to hang out with the family.

NMNIta
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Old May 3rd, 2004, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

NMNita:

I have been reading your posts on serveral cruise boards, I admire your wisdom and straight forwardness.

It just seems to be a shame that the entertainment of parents takes such priorty over the needs of small children that cruise lines find it necessary to make "cruise day care",
If the cruise lines really want to make cruising for families they should have a lot of fun onboard activities that involve entire familiies. Those over 5 that is. I still say leave the infant, todlers and very young children at home until they are older.

Marilynd
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old May 4th, 2004, 08:03 AM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Well, Nina, our family has cruised for a lot less than that amount. You have not done your homework.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old May 4th, 2004, 09:13 AM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

My, cruising is too crass for hubby! Now we hear about kids exploring a really good kids program. I know of several families, including my own grand kids that loved the kids program on both the Sea and Sun, but they still loved spending time with us and doing the tour thing or walking around town in every port, not to mention sitting out by the pool, going to the shows at night and spending the long hour or so at dinner. One cruise with our then, 12 year old grand daughter there was no kids club because no kids. It was a cruise to Alaska in late May. It was her favorite cruise without the kids activities. I will admit the families I am referring to were cruising with kids 8 and older. The only program that really sucked was Celebrity's teen program. Part of this was the age of the kids I am referring to: 16 and older. They really enjoyed the family element more than hanging out with a bunch of kids. By the way, our grand kids and the other families I am
thinking about are very social beings. One girl we meant was home coming queen at her high school in WV and our oldest grand daughter is in a top college sorority so we aren't talking about shy, not social beings. Nina, I am so glad to hear DH is generous enough to let you vacation without him once a year. How sweet!

NMNIta
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old May 4th, 2004, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Nina I can't believe that a child under the age of 5 asks the parents to go on a cruise.

I am not telling parent what to do, I just think that children under 5 should not be taken on a cruise. What does the child under 5 get out of a cruise. Does an infant remember the cruise they took wtih their family. I don't advocate parents leaving their infants and toddlers at home while they cruise. Cruises should be a place for older children who an appreciate the experience.

Do you go to the kids program with your children? On sea days are there family activities so that the cruise experience can be shared with the entire family? Or is the only family experience on a cruise consist of baking children at the pool , crowding the hot tub with children so other adults don't have space and trying to get them to behave at a nice restaurant when a slower multi course meal is served. Or is it a separate vacation for the kids at the clubs and the parents at the spa, casino, etc. I can see children over 5 enjoying the kids club for a few hours a day, but what about the rest of the day? The evening shows are not kid oriented and I was shocked to see children at the show on a cruise with a loud, foul comedian. Funny for adults, terrible experience for children. Do they have evening shows just for children and families?

My children who cruise with me are over 14. They do like to do get together with others there own age. I did at their age. They find friends on a cruise because they are old enough to socialize with other. They still find family important and will join in a family card game or watch a movie on the TV or ship theater. They enjoy the experience of fine dining and the socialization of dining.

I also cruise without my husband. He doesn't like the confinement of a cruise. Tried it and doesn't much like it. He is the "why plan it just do" it kind of traveler. Disneyworld is his favorite vacation spot. I did not take my children until they were older and I was sure they would be well behaved and would love the cruise experience.

I don't regret for one minute waiting to cruise until I had older chldren. I don't feel that they nor myself missed any memorable family experiences.

I now have taken 5 cruise in just over two years. The sixth is planned for June.
I love cruising !!!!!!!! So do my children !!!!!!!!
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Old May 4th, 2004, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Nina:

Surely you are not saying that all day long in the kids club is what your children enjoy. What kind of family vacation is that. All day long entertained by the ship and then again at night. Don't they want to spend time with family? You don't have a nanny but counselors to spend the days on vacation with the children.

I can see taking an infant and a small child on a private vacation with family. That is the way that it should be. But a cruise is hardly a small private family vacation. You are confined to a ship where the activities as a family can only be limited to a small area that is your stateroom or they must be shared with just 2000 other of the same people for the duration of the cruise. On a ship that is not offering freestyle dinning choices infants, toddlers and fussy young children are forced to behave at the table because that is the assigned time to eat. Why? I know that many young families take their young children to the buffet to eat ,but then don't the parents miss the experience that is fine dinning on a cruise. When we took our children on vacations when very young we went to only family style restaurants and have walked out of many with a child who was fussy and causing a disturbance. Never would we have taken an infant to a fine restaurant. Surely you must have had a babysitter, neighbor or someone to watch an infant or child for an hour or two while you enjoyed a nice dinner. Children can learn about proper dinning manners etc at home and be ready when older to dine with others.

Were my children ready to cruise when they were young. Yes they were. I just wanted them to be at an age where they understood that a few hours with friends are great but a family vacation is just that. They don't need to spend a day away from us. There is a balance. Shore excursions and the evening variety shows are great for families with older children. On the Dawn last year there were some great activities planned for my teenage children. Some looked so fun I wanted to do them myself. They did a great scavenger hunt. After that we watched a moovie together in the suite. Balance. No infants and screaming bored toddlers.

I think that the kids clubs on cruises are a great idea for children who are older than 5 years old. Then only for a couple hours a day. Shouldn't a ship offer family activities for the remainer of the day. What is this about kids club and counselors at night so parents can go to the shows. What is family about that? Why not ship sponsored games or silly plays involving whole families with younger children at night.

That is why I think that it is a shame that infants and young chldren are taken on cruises. Any what about children under 12. Why would a young child prefer to be with other children all day and evening rather than with family?

My children attended preschool also. They only went three hours a week. That is not an entire sea day and evening on a cruise ship. Thank goodness we live in a country where we can take our infants, toddlers, and small children in strollers, baby backpacks, etc to the park, the zoo, a community pool, or even a fun family restaurant. How appreciative is the child that learns that family time is number one with their parents.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 12:30 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Only one comment not at all relevant to the original post:
On one of the travel boards I frequent, a mother once commented that she intended to bring her THREE YEAR OLD daughter to ALL the art galleries in Paris. A few people commented that this might not be the "nicest" vacation for a 3 year old. The mother countered (I kid you not !) that her THREE year old LOVED art galleries.
My point - some parents will pursue their own pleasures (even if not in the best interests of their children) and then justify their choices with the most remarkable leaps of logic. Every child I have ever known under school age wants more than anything to spend time with THEIR parents doing age appropriate activities (except of course if parents are hyper-critical or abusive) rather than with strangers.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

mommyof3, did you ever dream your simple question would start such a flaming debate? Marilyn, your ideas are much like my daughters. I will admit her kids were in pre school much longer as you was and is a working mother, but every minute she wasn't working was dedicated to her children. Now, one is a senior in college and th other starts college this fall. Both are great gals and I am not predudice you understand.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Ok NM NIta , nina and all it is time for a confession. I had a nanny. I was and am a part time working mom. I am the President of a company that manufactures professional audio equipment. My husband (the VP) is an engineer and is the creative genius behind our success. My nanny was not a young girl or a substitute mom but a wonderful older "grandma" who came to work for us right after her husband died. Even though we haven't needed her services for over 10 years now she remains close to the family. She only worked in the mornings after I got the older children off to school and I would go off to work and be home most days by lunchtime. I never left a newborn in the care of anyone but myself. I took my infants to work with me. I also had a secretary that I encouraged to do the same.

The nanny never went on vacation with us because we felt that having her along would be too tempting for us to want to spend time away from the children. Our vacations were for family. NMnita you are right dedication to your children is the key. Go ahead and brag about such accomplished grandkids.

Marilyn
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Old May 4th, 2004, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

Sue, he is a smart man huh? Nina, lots of hubbies are as crazy over cruising as us gals, mine included and many of my cruises have been with daughter and grand kids or with friends. I have cruised about 15 times I guess and DH about 9. I'm impressed with his choice of places to taste wine: we would just as soon do our wine tasting in Calif, but we don't own a family home in Europe. I am waiting for you to let us know you are John Kerry's cousin or some such confession. I can see that one coming now that we know hubby will retire early, you are working on your masters and still have time to travel the world several times a year, rent a $3000.00 a week home at the shore every year and own property in Europe,

Enjoy your trip to Italy and be sure to give us a follow up. I know you will!

NMNita
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Old May 4th, 2004, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

I only wish that my DH liked to cruise as much as I do. He says that he will cruise every couple of years and be good about it. I'm planning that cruise now. Maybe Hawaii since that is a favorite family vacation spot. It seems like cruising Hawaii is a good way to get a sampling of the islands and still have the fun on the cruise ship. Something for my daughters and I (the cruise lovers) and my husband and sons (the land lovers)

Nina: Have fun in Italy. Do you get around by train? We are looking at a family vacation there in October. We are thinking that taking the train between major cities will be much better than renting a van for all of us. What is it like driving a car in Italy?
I haven't been to Italy but driving in Switzerland was scary because all traffic laws are just guidelines to drivers. Lots of speeding drivers weaving in and out of traffic lanes.
Somehow I see Italy being the same. Just more cute sports cars and motor scooters.

Marilyn
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Old May 4th, 2004, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Not potty trained kids in the pools...continued.

It's become obvious some of the "parents" here don't know how to carry on a discussion without personal attacks.

Personal attacks are not allowed.... and have been deleted from this thread.

If this thread demonstrates the communication abilities of some of the posters, I think there may be much more to worry about than kiddies in the pool.

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