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-   -   Important - Please Read (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393701)

Paul Motter December 17th, 2012 03:57 PM

Important - Please Read
 
In case you have not read them for awhile, we started this area with a post that says "Welcome to open debate." When you read that post you read the rules of this area...

This is not an "anything goes" area. We still have the same rules of moderation we have in all other forums and those rules also apply here. We expect courtesy and respect even when there is a difference of opinion.

Name calling and other insulting characterizations, personal or otherwise, will not be tolerated.


I am seeing people being called idiots and morons for their beliefs. I also see far too many veiled references where it is clear what is being said even though the actual abusive rhetoric has been left out.

The idea of this area was to engage in intellectual debate - not just to flame people you do not like.

We will be giving out infraction points for inflammatory speech if tone of the posts here is not cleaned up immediately.

To be honest with you, I am shocked at the behavior of some of the people here - what happened to respect for your fellow Americans even if you disagree with them?

We expect the same level; of respect for difference of opinion as you would read in an average column by a political analyst. Name-calling does not make a point, it only makes you look intolerant.

zydecocruiser December 17th, 2012 08:43 PM

I don't think public officials, past, present, or future, should get a free pass when they abuse their position and take advantage of the public.

For example, Huckabee knew exactly what he was saying and in typical political double speak has sometime after the fact offered a water downed version and claims that is what he meant. I say BS. If there wasn't general outrage at what he said, he would never have offered the modification.

Trackypup December 17th, 2012 09:32 PM

^^ What he said^^

it's one thing to name call a member for posting their opinion but when someone in the media does something hateful or is just so stupid and uncalled for and hurtful to many, then they need to be called on it.

if you don't agree, shut down the forum. It wasn't meant to be rainbows and unicorns.

Don't remember you having issues with AC calling BO a Retard? Or is this strictly aimed at MH? We're fine to call the members of the Westboro Baptist church sick bastards for picketing the memorial? Where exactly are the lines?

Manuel December 17th, 2012 10:04 PM

I don't want to get in trouble with my posting, so I am staying away from ( open debate ).

TM

zydecocruiser December 18th, 2012 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zydecocruiser (Post 1458888)
I don't think public officials, past, present, or future, should get a free pass when they abuse their position and take advantage of the public.

For example, Huckabee knew exactly what he was saying and in typical political double speak has sometime after the fact offered a water downed version and claims that is what he meant. I say BS. If there wasn't general outrage at what he said, he would never have offered the modification.

watered down, water boarded, whatever.

mehawk December 18th, 2012 07:49 AM

What Manny says... :cool:

ship2shore December 18th, 2012 09:18 AM

Sorry Mr. Motter, but you are more guilty than most of violating your own policies with regards to your posts about the current Presidents re-election. You want to think this thing out again? You are confusing our little brains with double-talk.

Luanne Russo December 18th, 2012 10:46 AM

Paul, I understand your message, but I also join others in saying I won't be posting here anymore. I learned as a child, that name calling was wrong, and I'm to old to start now.:D

I was also turned off by the fact that an opinion was made fun of, unless it was the one that some wanted to hear.

Paul B December 18th, 2012 11:23 AM

Paul, I have been with you 100 percent from the beginning. Reasonable discussion does not require name calling. It is kind of sad to think that some of the posters on here have spoiled your intent to make this a place to agreeably disagree.

omnipotent December 26th, 2012 08:44 AM

Paul, I feel that you have been fair in your guidelines for the Forum and I feel it is sad that some pople have been abusive. I also feel that since you own the forum through your position of editor you can make the rules as well as express opinions. Let those who do not want to follow leave and suffer the loss of this Forum.

Lakers Fan December 26th, 2012 10:35 AM

My plan is to abstain from political commenting .

Paul Motter December 26th, 2012 03:13 PM

I am not an extreme conservative in any sense of the word. In fact I am most moderate in many areas.

Furthermore, I am only trying to keep a sense of respect and decorum in these boards because I care about (1) not insulting people and (2) honest debate - as opposed to name-calling and propagandized confabulations of the truth.

I just want to say I think it is really sad that there are people who are so obviously narrow-minded that they cannot stop themselves from attacking me personally just for doing my job to the best of my ability because they disagree with my political points of view.

Any one who is not happy in our playground is more than welcome to take their toys and go play with themselves. That would be a more mature reaction than some of the personal attacks on me I have seen here. Especially considering the fact that for weeks now I had held off on giving out infractions, and tried repeatedly to get people to conform to our standards by choice instead of by force.

Paul Motter December 26th, 2012 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luanne Russo (Post 1458938)
Paul, I understand your message, but I also join others in saying I won't be posting here anymore. I learned as a child, that name calling was wrong, and I'm to old to start now.:D

I was also turned off by the fact that an opinion was made fun of, unless it was the one that some wanted to hear.

I couldn't agree more. You may have noticed that I have largely stopped posting here myself. The problem is that if we only leave to one side to post then we don't have balanced point of view here.

TAKE NOTE: This process of intimidation through name calling and unbridaled personal insults is now a well-recognized and accepted tactic by the left drawn from Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals: Rules for Radicals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

RULE 12: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.


Gee, do you think insulting the web site and its editor has anything at all to do with his political leanings? NO, of course not.

zydecocruiser December 26th, 2012 03:30 PM

IMO, attempts at intimidation have come almost exclusively from the right. I also think it is almost impossible to be objective when one has a vested interest in the outcome of an event.

Luanne Russo December 26th, 2012 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Motter (Post 1459554)
I couldn't agree more. You may have noticed that I have largely stopped posting here myself. The problem is that if we only leave to one side to post then we don't have balanced point of view here.

TAKE NOTE: This process of intimidation through name calling and unbridaled personal insults is now a well-recognized and accepted tactic by the left drawn from Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals: Rules for Radicals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

RULE 12: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.


Gee, do you think insulting the web site and its editor has anything at all to do with his political leanings? NO, of course not.


Paul, I really wanted this to work. There are so many subjects that came on the news, and my first thought was "That would be great for Open debate" but I can't deal with the attacks.

On here, there is only one side allowed, and it isn't usually mine.:D

Marsdude December 27th, 2012 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luanne Russo (Post 1459559)
Paul, I really wanted this to work. There are so many subjects that came on the news, and my first thought was "That would be great for Open debate" but I can't deal with the attacks.

On here, there is only one side allowed, and it isn't usually mine.:D

So those of us who disagree with what you say should just be allowed to agree or not post at all?

I have been posting online since BEFORE the internet was available to the public. Remember the old bulletin boards on the backbone?

When you post an opinion on a forum on the internet that is named Open Debate isn't it reasonable to expect spirited debate to ensue? If you didn't want to debate your opinion why post it on a thread called "Open Debate?"

All of these "sour grapes" from folks on the Right here that think they have been attacked is nonsense. I am not attacking anyone one person on here. I AM DEBATING THEIR VIEWS.

You folks need to learn that when I or someone else that views our world from a left leaning view, that we are not evil, we are not bums that live off of welfare, we are not socialists, and we are not attacking you personally.

I personally am very tired of the nonsense of dealing with people who are never wrong. It has been my life experience that people who are never wrong - are generally wrong.

Paul Motter December 27th, 2012 12:38 PM

I honestly don't know why everyone has such a bug up their nose about my wanting to enforce a simple rule of no name-calling or negative characterizations here.

It is possible to debate political policy without constantly resorting to anecdotal evidence solely meant to make your opposition look bad. It is also possible to debate policy without getting into attacking the messenger and NO ONE has endured that here more than me.

And that is all I am saying. Stay away from pejorative terms - PLEASE! The reason is this: every time you post about someone being "stupid" for their beliefs then you are also calling anyone with similar beliefs who may be reading this "stupid."

If you post a link that goes to overt and nasty examples of racism, you may have thought you were using in someone's defense, but in fact to the target of the hate you are merely regurgitating it and re-promoting it. When they read it, they don't see you as standing up for them, they only see the original hate and feel it all over again.

It's all of matter of respect - we expect you to act here as you act in polite mixed company. If you cannot discuss politics without making it personal and without maintaining a basis of dignity then you shouldn't discuss politics - at least not here.

And stop getting hung up on the name of the board and RESPECT THE GROUND RULES which we posted when we opened this area. here they are again...

This is not an "anything goes" area. We still have the same rules of moderation we have in all other forums and those rules also apply here. We expect courtesy and respect even when there is a difference of opinion.

Name calling and other insulting characterizations, personal or otherwise, will not be tolerated.

ship2shore December 27th, 2012 12:41 PM

Luanne has said at least 3 or 4 times she will never post here again. Then she comes back for more, always with the same woe-begone "everybodys picking on me" story. It gets old fast. Maybe Chit-Chat IS more her speed. Just an observation, NOT a personal attack.

Paul Motter December 27th, 2012 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zydecocruiser (Post 1459556)
IMO, attempts at intimidation have come almost exclusively from the right. I also think it is almost impossible to be objective when one has a vested interest in the outcome of an event.

It would help if you posted some examples of intimidation from the right.

If it helps, there is one word I have seen from a few diots on the right that I think is tasteless: "libtard." In my opinion, if you resort to using a name like that you sound like a high school dropout.

But on the other hand, "knuckle-dragging neanderthal" was not invented here, I have seen that term used about conservatives many times over the years. But most ridiculous is the constant accusations of racism by the right. Lately even black people who are republicans have been accused of "not being with it."

Hey - any time a person feels intimidated to conform to any political belief then they are living in a repressive society. And any politician or party that promotes that kind of intimidation is an oppresive regime.

Paul Motter December 27th, 2012 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ship2shore (Post 1459628)
Luanne has said at least 3 or 4 times she will never post here again. Then she comes back for more, always with the same woe-begone "everybodys picking on me" story. It gets old fast. Maybe Chit-Chat IS more her speed. Just an observation, NOT a personal attack.

It is true that since the election it feels as if the Republicans are not allowed to have an opinion. It feels like just because 51% of people voted democrat that they expect everyone to switch off their beliefs and fall in line.

However - I am smart enough to realize that had the election gone the other way the same probably would have happened - because that is the political climate we have in this country now.

I personally think the level of political discourse in this nation really stinks right now. My whole life I was taught that we respect our fellow Americans and work to compromise. I think it is the advent of the Internet giving everyone equal access to media that we have seen political discussion really go downhill in this country.

Kuki December 27th, 2012 06:59 PM

For those who may not know, I am snowbirding in AZ. I mention that only to give some context to my post.

Today I went golfing with 2 friends. A person joined us in my cart, who is visiting from NY, and he ended up sharing a cart with me.

During the course of the day on the links, he began talking to me about the school shootings two weeks ago, Hurricane Sandy, and then into some political discussion.

He's a Bond trader, and seemed quite bright, and as we talked we had some things we agreed on, and some which we had quite different perspectives and opinions.

But.. you know, we had very civil, respectful and interesting discussions.

That was me and a stranger, and that's what Open Debate should be.

Maybe it's because we were face to face, and no one had anonymity. But we had a really nice time golfing, and talking politics.

No reason it can't be like that here, and I think that's all Paul is saying.

No one should take what is said about "their side" in other forums and mediums as an attack against them personally.

I think most everyone has disagreements with things that are said and done by "their own side". And therefore, no one should not presume what might be said by those "on the right", or those "on the left" is supported by everyone with those leanings.

zydecocruiser December 27th, 2012 07:49 PM

Even on cruises we have a rule of no discussing politics or religion. Period. Unless we all agree.

I think by and large, Canadians are more civilized about such things. Certainly Democrats are. But Republicans? Fuggedaboutit.

ship2shore December 27th, 2012 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuki (Post 1459659)
For those who may not know, I am snowbirding in AZ. I mention that only to give some context to my post.

Today I went golfing with 2 friends. A person joined us in my cart, who is visiting from NY, and he ended up sharing a cart with me.

During the course of the day on the links, he began talking to me about the school shootings two weeks ago, Hurricane Sandy, and then into some political discussion.

He's a Bond trader, and seemed quite bright, and as we talked we had some things we agreed on, and some which we had quite different perspectives and opinions.

But.. you know, we had very civil, respectful and interesting discussions.

That was me and a stranger, and that's what Open Debate should be.

Maybe it's because we were face to face, and no one had anonymity. But we had a really nice time golfing, and talking politics.

No reason it can't be like that here, and I think that's all Paul is saying.

No one should take what is said about "their side" in other forums and mediums as an attack against them personally.

I think most everyone has disagreements with things that are said and done by "their own side". And therefore, no one should not presume what might be said by those "on the right", or those "on the left" is supported by everyone with those leanings.

Quite simply put: the internet gives you the freedom to say what you REALLY feel. Im sure you walked on eggshells in your discussion with the "stranger"...

Luanne Russo December 27th, 2012 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ship2shore (Post 1459628)
Luanne has said at least 3 or 4 times she will never post here again. Then she comes back for more, always with the same woe-begone "everybodys picking on me" story. It gets old fast. Maybe Chit-Chat IS more her speed. Just an observation, NOT a personal attack.


I can't figure out your obsession with me, but its getting kind of creepy. You have gone out of your way before to say I was to nice, and now you are keeping count of my posts. I am pretty sure there is a clinical name for what you have, and there might be meds for it.

Anyone who has a third grade education knows to use the button that blocks you from peoples post. Please either use it, or get someone to show you how, cause I am going to post again, and again, and again.

Just an observation, NOT a personal attack.

ship2shore December 27th, 2012 09:28 PM

Dunno, I just have a "creepy" issue with hypocrisy, I guess.
But, hey, leave, or dont leave... the incessant whining is certainly tiresome. Some people seem to back into their corners and shout here; its to be expected after all. But you seem to want to cry from your corner, and thats kinda creepy too.

Luanne Russo December 27th, 2012 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ship2shore (Post 1459668)
Dunno, I just have a "creepy" issue with hypocrisy, I guess.
But, hey, leave, or dont leave... the incessant whining is certainly tiresome. Some people seem to back into their corners and shout here; its to be expected after all. But you seem to want to cry from your corner, and thats kinda creepy too.


There you go again worrying about me. Yes, I do cry. Yes, I have feelings. Yes, I truely care about people. Yes, I am worried about my country. Yes, I am worried about you.

Really, You need to focus on something else. Afterall, it's much better to whin, than to *****.

ship2shore December 27th, 2012 10:50 PM

[QUOTE=Luanne Russo]Yes, I am worried about you.[QUOTE]

Now THAT is REALLY creepy: Youve graduated from self-appointed board moralist to board psychologist. roflroflroflrofl

Kuki December 27th, 2012 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ship2shore (Post 1459665)
Quite simply put: the internet gives you the freedom to say what you REALLY feel. Im sure you walked on eggshells in your discussion with the "stranger"...

Not at all. I may not have likely started the political discussion, but I would say we were both pretty frank about our opinions (some of which we definitely agreed on).

But were able to disgree in a friendly, civil manner.

The trick was probably that we both listened, as well as spoke.

OldFartCruiser December 27th, 2012 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Motter (Post 1459627)
I honestly don't know why everyone has such a bug up their nose about my wanting to enforce a simple rule of no name-calling or negative characterizations here.

And stop getting hung up on the name of the board...

I didn't read where anyone had a hang-up on no name-calling. A lot of folks misinterpret your job position. Most websites have a moderator or monitor who is either silent or neutral on subjects. A lot of us, including myself, got that position mixed up with your position as Editor. An Editor writes opinions, even controversial ones.

I am glad :D to hear you have started being less controversial.

"And stop getting hung up on the name of the board", Wow, that puts a whole new light on things. We were all drawn to this site because of the name CRUISEMATES. That explains why there is so much encouraged discussion on non cruising topics.

O F C'er

ship2shore December 27th, 2012 10:54 PM

"Listening" is a very hard thing to do, my friend, especially in person. Speaking for myself, of course.

Naturally, the problem here (if one actually exists) is that everyone is yelling with their fingers in their ears. Not only can you not hear the others, but probably not yourself as well.


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