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  #1 (permalink)  
Old May 12th, 2013, 11:00 PM
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Default Why Can't Liberals Let Go of Their Hatred of George Bush?

This question was asked in another thread.

As a liberal, I can say I don't hate President Bush. In fact, I have met his mother, and I'm sure he was a well-meaning boy.

However, I do blame his incompetence for allowing almost 3000 people to be murdered on 9/11.

Historical facts aren't things that can "be let go of", like a bad relationship. They just are.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 09:02 AM
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It does seem strange that so many of those on the winning side should be so vitriolic toward the loser, doesn't it?

I find it interesting that you should post this now, because I just had an insight into this question a few days ago. A relative of mine has become quite liberal and is among those who truly despise the younger Bush even though he does not blame GWB for 9/11. In conversation it finally came out that what triggered his anger was the waterboarding of prisoners. He is appalled that the US would have resorted to torture, and complained that "we used to be the good guys, and we're not anymore."

He honestly believes that nothing like that ever happened before. I pointed out to him that until Vietnam, newscasters used to be very selective in what they reported to the public, and that even more than 50 years ago, when I was in high school, a common debate team topic was "Is torture ever justified?" The usual background to the question was, if you know or strongly suspect that an enemy has information that could prevent the deaths of tens or hundreds of your companions, is it right to torture the enemy to obtain the information?"

He feels that actions under the administration of GWB make the US no better than North Korea. I pointed out that the US treats its own citizens (and millions of illegals, too) a WHOLE lot better than North Korea does its people.

Anyhow, naivety about the purity of US actions in the past may not be the root cause of all of the hatred toward the last administration, but I suspect it contributes to a lot of it.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 09:53 AM
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The sad part is that this administrations still blames Bush for the bad state of the economy. When is Pres. Obama going to start taking responsibility for his part of this mess since he has been in office over 4 years now?
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Old May 13th, 2013, 10:12 AM
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The appropriateness of torture in extreme circumstances has always been a matter for debate. However, to justify it on the basis of "it's always been done" instantly puts you in moral quicksand. I believe that when a nation signs the Geneva Conventions, it should not do so with its fingers crossed behind its back. The proper treatment of prisoners is a cornerstone of international humanitarian law, it is written in clear, black-letter text, and you either obey the rules or you don't.

As far as Bush the younger is concerned, I'm a liberal and I don't hate him. He's just one of the passing parade of not over-bright people who are born to privilege, and who rise to a position that they are utterly incapable of handling. Happens all the time. Unfortunately, in this case the situation damaged the nation badly in many, many ways.

My anger focuses on his much smarter and much darker acolytes, Cheney and Rumsfeld, who saw the obvious weaknesses in the president and took advantage of the situation to enforce their neocon ideals. We are still paying the price for that evil in lives, in pain, in suffering and in treasure.

I think those who continue to "hate" Bush are largely driven by the nearly unprecedented mess he left when that helicopter departed the South Lawn on January 20, 2009. You can argue endlessly about how quickly that mess shoulda, coulda, mighta been cleaned up, but the fact of it is beyond question. We were still fighting one war that had been totally discredited, another that was being seriously questioned (and still is), we were in an economic environment where business, banks and Wall Street were operating with no effective oversight whatever. Bush's government had no interest at all in controlling their excesses. The inevitable and easily foreseen housing bubble had burst. Unemployment was raging and had significant, unstoppable downside inertia after he left. Bush left a train wreck behind him. We've not recovered from it, and many people lay the blame at his feet.

None of which is to apologize for Obama. He's done a mediocre job at best, even allowing for an utterly broken, dysfunctional Congress. His intellect runs rings around Bush's, but he's not done well with his people skills, and despite his rhetorical brilliance, he's not connected with people as well as he should. Beyond that, he's not been nearly as forceful as he should be in gathering up public opinion to force a more functional government overall. We will not have a potentially more persuasive president for a long time to come, and it is a shame to see those skills squandered.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 10:15 AM
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I know some Liberals who like George Bush. He and I have something in common we are both happy retirees.

Any President in our times has more problems than he can handle. The President has little power to make changes and since we have a do-nothing Congress, things will stay as they are until they get worse.

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Old May 13th, 2013, 12:33 PM
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I don't hate Bush, but I dispise what his Administration did while he was president.

The Iraq war, sold to us on a lie of WMDs, is one of the biggest ongoing arguments I and my now ex-husband ever got into. I kept saying that invasion was wrong, preemptive war was wrong, and that the inspectors should be able to finish their job.

The Bush Administration is responsible for moving me from Independant to Democrat and then to Progressive Democrat. (Family Values and the Murphy Brown debate caused me to quit the Republican party back in the 90s).
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Old May 13th, 2013, 01:33 PM
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I am like Manuel, former president Bush is now retired, and I will wait to see how history tells his story.

Many believe that hundreds were waterboarded, which is not true. Only one or two were waterboarded, and for only a few minutes at a time.

I look at it this way. One or two men got water up their nose, but yet probably thousands of lives were saved by the info we received for his wet nose.

As far as what was found in Iraq. When you get a chance, visit your local Vet hospital, and ask them what was found, and when it was distroyed,how it effected our troops.

Four and a half years after Obama took office, we are still at war. Why? He said he would get the troops out, but yet they are still there.

President Obama promised many things when he was running. It is much easier to make promises before, but now he is it, and I am sure he realizes it isn't an easy job after all.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 07:44 PM
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IMHO FDR and HST were the worst US presidents . The best thing that bush ever did was to sell the Texas Rangers .
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Old May 13th, 2013, 11:42 PM
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Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Bush set the bar pretty low - we don't need to set any more records.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 01:57 PM
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Yes Bush set the bar pretty low! I agree but Obama didn't need to go and lower it even more!
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Old May 14th, 2013, 05:47 PM
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That would be impossible.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sistersolo View Post
"we used to be the good guys, and we're not anymore."
Regardless of your Vietnam story, the point is the modern United States is torturing innocent humans ... those who aren't terrorists but just lived in Afghanistan.

And many seemingly normal people, i.e. those in Cruisemates support it.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 10:57 AM
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It is so much more difficult to make a point in writing than when speaking. I'll try again.

I don't approve of torture any more than most people do. I was trying to say that I don't think that my country has never done it in the past, regardless of whether or not the public approved of it. My relative, however, thinks that up until GWB, the actions of the US were always above reproach in every regard. His anger is therefore based on the illusion that things changed under Bush's watch.

Personally, if there has really been any overall moral decline in this country (as opposed to just greater reporting of transgressions), I would place the blame on the Clinton administration. After all, that is when the phrase "morals don't matter" was applied to the selection of government officials.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 11:48 PM
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I do not know which administrations are more "responsible" than others, but I do know that two wars in IRAQ (and the compounded interest involved) will cost USA taxpayers more than ANY President can bungle the national economy.

Those wars cost Trillions upon Trillions of dollars, all paid for with the national Visa card, and it will take decades, if not centuries of full-on economic pain to repay. We have not even BEGUN to think about repayment.

At least a "stimulus package" has a "trickle-down effect" (to paraphrase Reagan). A million dollar smart-bomb blown up in the desert has no such benefit. (I know someone has to build these things, and get paid for it, but we have to KEEP dropping them to "stimulate" the economy this way, which has proven a tad expensive, but hey, Visa just upped our limit again).

Let us not forget the Mortgage fiasco, and deep recession, which had Bush Jr.s hands firmly in the mess. He relaxed the banking laws, and allowed greedy children to run amok on Wall Street (with absolutely no repercussions, I might add). If I, as a private citizen, stole 1% of what they did from the US taxpayers, I would be hunted down like a dirty dog and stored away with Jodi Arias (and sleep with one eye open for the rest of my days).

Obama might be screwing up (debatable still), but Bush Jr. is still the master prototype against which all future screw-ups will be compared.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 12:33 AM
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I think former president Bush is needed more now than every before. President Obama is awakes every day it seems, with yet another screw up.

I would like to remind you Ship, That Obama has been in office 4 years and 4 months. Afgan war could have been stopped many moons ago if he felt the way you do.

I know that it is so popular to say that Bush was dumb, but what about Obama?

I know that it makes people feel good by saying Bush spent to much money, but what about Obama.

I know it is fun for the Libs to say that Bush messed up so much, because that's what they are suppose to say. It was repeated over and over again, until people started to believe it.

Let's see what history has to say about these two presidents. But, not to soon, because Obama is making history now, and doing many things that other presidents wouldn't have thought of doing.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 01:32 AM
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Obama is not without fault, but not for the reasons that most people like to quote. He didn't run up the deficit, unless you try to hold him accountable for actually counting the cost of war that the previous administration had been keeping "off the books."

I can blame him for not reversing the "Unitary Executive" idea that was set forth by the Bush Administration. There is too much power in the hands of the Executive Branch.

I can blame him for not pushing us out of Afghanistan once it was clear that we are simply throwing good money and lives into a no win situation.

I can blame him for not putting single payer on the table when we were trying to redo our medical. We don't have healthcare reform, we now have health insurance reform and a severely weakened one at that when we might have had something like looked more like Medicare for all.

I blame Obama for putting Social Security on the table during the debt limit negotiations. I blame the GOP legislators for the fact that there were debt limit negotiations to be had at all.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 08:49 AM
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Moon,

I 'm not sure what can be said of Obama. That is why I said that time will tell.

So far he knew nothing of the gun running the ATF took on.

So far he knew nothing of bad security in Benghazi. He also didn't know that the stand down order was given to leave those in danger to die without help.

He also didn't know that lies were told about Benghazi to the American people.

Lately, he didn't know that the justice dept. had over reached on personal e-mails of newspeople.

He didn't know that the IRS was doing all they could do to stop conservative groups from organizing. He didn't know that faith based organizations were being harressed. He didn't know these groups would get what they needed days after the election when what they were trying to do, would no longer be effective.

We have three branches of gov. He is the leader of one such branch.

We have, what we have, and now we have to let history tell us if he was effective or not.

I wouldn't want to ask him what history will say, because he would say he didn't know..........
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlight Reader View Post

I blame Obama for putting Social Security on the table during the debt limit negotiations. I blame the GOP legislators for the fact that there were debt limit negotiations to be had at all.
The Democrats and the Republicans need to pay attention.

There are several things that can be done to keep the Social Security solid. The President and the members of Congress must learn to work together for the good of the people in the USA.

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Old May 22nd, 2013, 09:59 AM
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[QUOTE=Luanne Russo;1473823]Moon,

So far he knew nothing of bad security in Benghazi. He also didn't know that the stand down order was given to leave those in danger to die without help.

He also didn't know that lies were told about Benghazi to the American people.

QUOTE]

Some day history may sort out all the details of the Obama presidency, but....

It's funny that you hold Obama so responsible for Benghazi and the tragedy of 4 lives lost there.

Yet hold no such responsibility to George W. Bush and the fact he took a nation to war on the premise of a fist full of lies, resulting in the deaths of 4400 US soldiers, and serious injuries to another 40,000.

Or the fact that he had Osama Binladen cornered in the mountains of Tora Bora, and made the blunder of policy allowing him to escape. And then immediately turned his attention to Iraq.

And in doing so, extinguished Iran's sworn enemy, allowing it to grow from irrelevancy, to a "player" in the region, and a major threat.

Yes, people should hold Obama responsible for his actions while President of the United States, and in time maybe the entire story will come out.

However, no one's bad memory of the past shouldn't cloud the history before him.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 10:34 AM
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With all due respect, Bill Clinton had Ben Lauden and failed to get him, which would have saved the AMERICAN people from a possible 9/11 and the need to go after him, and his thugs in two wars.

With all due respect, History will show that bad info has put all countries in a position that cause death. People are human, and make mistakes.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne Russo View Post

With all due respect, History will show that bad info has put all countries in a position that cause death. People are human, and make mistakes.
Except in respect to the current President?

BTW.. I believe it was the Reagan administration which armed, trained, and provided covert assistance to Bin Laden during the Russia/Ahfganistan war.

History has all sorts of interesting twists and turns, and so many actions seem to result in all sorts of unintended consequences.

Not unlike those who are now calling for military aid to the Syrian Rebels.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 03:01 PM
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Good point.

Funny how Iran is so "grateful" that the USA did their dirty work for them.
Something they couldn't do in 20 years of full-on war with Iraq.
Good move, George.

I really wonder when we are gonna mind our own business.
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Old May 24th, 2013, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sistersolo View Post
It does seem strange that so many of those on the winning side should be so vitriolic toward the loser, doesn't it?
The winning side on 9/11 was the terrorists. The losing side was the United States. Nobody on the winning side has posted here.

I at least hope you can agree stopping the next "9/11" is recognizing the mindset that allowed it. If not, I guarantee there will be another major terrorist attack on the United States.
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Old May 24th, 2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
The winning side on 9/11 was the terrorists. The losing side was the United States. Nobody on the winning side has posted here.

I at least hope you can agree stopping the next "9/11" is recognizing the mindset that allowed it. If not, I guarantee there will be another major terrorist attack on the United States.
Aidan, In a way I disagree with you. It is true that 9/11 was a very hard hit, but in the end we won. For the first time in years, the American people came together. Flags were on just about everyone's door step, soldiers, first responders were praised, In all we pretty much stood together for one cause.

Yes, 9/11 was hard, but we won back our pride.
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Old May 24th, 2013, 02:57 PM
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Luanne, with all the deaths that occurred on 9/11 and the wars afterward, how can you say that we won?

The terrorists are still attacking and our money is still being spent, many people are afraid to travel. If this is a win, I hate to think what would have happened if we had lost.

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Old June 20th, 2013, 02:04 PM
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Luanne Russo Luanne
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I think former president Bush is needed more now than every before. President Obama is awakes every day it seems, with yet another screw up.

I would like to remind you Ship, That Obama has been in office 4 years and 4 months. Afgan war could have been stopped many moons ago if he felt the way you do.

I know that it is so popular to say that Bush was dumb, but what about Obama?

I know that it makes people feel good by saying Bush spent to much money, but what about Obama.

I know it is fun for the Libs to say that Bush messed up so much, because that's what they are suppose to say. It was repeated over and over again, until people started to believe it.

Let's see what history has to say about these two presidents. But, not to soon, because Obama is making history now, and doing many things that other presidents wouldn't have thought of doing.

************************************************** ************************************************** *
What history is saying is that Bush is now ranked as the 4th or 5th WORST president in American History (39th out of 44).

Obama is, even with only one term, ranked as the 16th BEST (16th out of 44).

This according to the Conservative Christian Siena College Presidential Poll of 238 presidential writers and historians.

I think that 'History' has already spoken.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smkeller View Post
Luanne Russo Luanne
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I think former president Bush is needed more now than every before. President Obama is awakes every day it seems, with yet another screw up.

I would like to remind you Ship, That Obama has been in office 4 years and 4 months. Afgan war could have been stopped many moons ago if he felt the way you do.

I know that it is so popular to say that Bush was dumb, but what about Obama?

I know that it makes people feel good by saying Bush spent to much money, but what about Obama.

I know it is fun for the Libs to say that Bush messed up so much, because that's what they are suppose to say. It was repeated over and over again, until people started to believe it.

Let's see what history has to say about these two presidents. But, not to soon, because Obama is making history now, and doing many things that other presidents wouldn't have thought of doing.

************************************************** ************************************************** *
What history is saying is that Bush is now ranked as the 4th or 5th WORST president in American History (39th out of 44).

Obama is, even with only one term, ranked as the 16th BEST (16th out of 44).

This according to the Conservative Christian Siena College Presidential Poll of 238 presidential writers and historians.

I think that 'History' has already spoken.
Not even close.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 08:20 AM
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If this country is dumb enough to elect another Republican President, I'm sure we will have a new contender to take George W's place as the worst ever.
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Old July 15th, 2013, 03:48 PM
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Ask anyone who lived in New Orleans at the time of Hurricane Katrina how they feel about him....we love Laura Bush because since they left office she has returned several times (without fanfare or media hype) with her foundation to help rebuild school libraries...since he left office he has never return to the lower 9th ward (he came once to the suburbs for a private fundraiser for a rich republican) to offer to help rebuild or at least say he was sorry...that speaks volume IMHO

However, I will give him credit....if it were not for him...this country would not have elected Barrack Obama

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