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  #1 (permalink)  
Old July 15th, 2013, 10:40 PM
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Default Zimmerman trial verdict

Is anyone interested in debating the outcome of the trial ?
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Old July 15th, 2013, 11:15 PM
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The guy is a nut job but the prosecutor blew it and the jury spoke.

I wonder if they will now charge him with molesting his cousin on numerous occasions?

Sooner or later someone will take him out.
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Old July 16th, 2013, 06:52 AM
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I think we should place at least a 30 day embargo (cooling off period) before we debate it...during the embargo, rather then listen to the incendiary rhetoric on cable tv and talk radio
I would suggest reaching out to friends/coworkers who are African Americans who have teenage sons and invite them to your home for dinner and an open discussion to gain a perspective other then your own...if they feel comfortable enough with you to be honest, I think both sides would benefit and then at least on this board, we could have a discussion with a different tenor to it....if we were on a CM group cruise leaving this weekend , I'm sure this would be discussed in a respectful manner, not so sure about these boards right now

As an African American , with a son and grandson, who lives in the deep South in an upscale mixed neighborhood and walks 5 miles a day, my walk on Sunday morning was very interesting because my White neighbors did not know how to engage in conversation with me about the verdict, but I know they wanted to say something

Travon Martin could have been my son
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Old July 16th, 2013, 08:37 AM
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Venice, I agree with you 100%.

This was a very sad situation and is not easy for me to talk about.

When my son was a teenager he had a short fuse and he was often mistaken for being under the influence. He is legally blind and walks carefully and not very fast.
He is fairly dark because one of his Grandmothers was of African descent and a couple of times a police officer thought that my son was on the wrong neighborhood.

The bright side is that he has done quite well, he is 42 years old, has his own home and he is a great son. We talk every day and he loves to come and visit us in Florida.

It would have been nice for Trayvon Martin to have had a chance to grow up and become an adult.

My prayers go out to his family.

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Old July 16th, 2013, 09:28 AM
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Default The prosecution did not prove Zimmerman guilty of any crime beyond a reasonable doubt

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Originally Posted by Lakers Fan View Post
Is anyone interested in debating the outcome of the trial ?
The prosecution did not prove Zimmerman guilty of any crime beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the law case dismissed.

Beyond reasonable doubt is the standard of evidence required to validate a criminal conviction in most adversarial legal systems.[citation needed]
Generally the prosecution bears the burden of proof and is required to prove their version of events to this standard. This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty. "The shadow of a doubt" is sometimes used interchangeably with reasonable doubt, but this extends beyond the latter, to the extent that it may be considered an impossible standard. The term "reasonable doubt" is therefore used.
If doubt does affect a "reasonable person's" belief that the defendant is guilty, the jury is not satisfied beyond "reasonable doubt". The precise meaning of words such as "reasonable" and "doubt" are usually defined within jurisprudence of the applicable country.
black.
Randy Reep, a criminal defense lawyer in Florida, said the case put the criminal justice system in the spotlight, "blemishes, warts and all." Unlike Jealous and Ciccariello-Maher, Reep said he thinks the system worked.
"In watching the case, it is clear to me the jury got it right," Reep said. "The prosecution team did the very best with what they had, they just did not have the facts on their side. At least enough facts."
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Old July 16th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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I don't want to debate anything.

My heart goes out to Trayvon Martin's family.
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Old July 16th, 2013, 01:04 PM
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The scary thing is that Mr.Zimmerman is getting his gun back.
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Old July 16th, 2013, 01:16 PM
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Another scary thing is that it might generate more Zimmermen.

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Old July 16th, 2013, 01:55 PM
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I agree with Moiraine, I only offer my thoughts and prayers for the families involved, and to the hundreds of children of color, that have been killed since this happened. Where is the out rage there?
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Old July 16th, 2013, 03:34 PM
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After giving this topic much thought I decided to post:
20 years ago my 19 year old son was driving home from football practice. He was giving a couple of other players a ride home. They all played for our local community college. He was dropping the first friend off when a group of guys started shooting at another group of guys that was standing nearby. No connection between my son and his friends and the two groups. Two bullets hit my son and he died in the driver seat of his car. I know the circumstances are different but as Trayvon's parents do, I also know what is is to lose a son.
We got a conviction in our case and the man was given a life sentence. The sad part is that me and my family were given a life sentence too. My prayers go out to Trayvon's parents and his family because they were also given a life sentence.
Please forgive me if I've said to much.
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Old July 16th, 2013, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seadog2 View Post
After giving this topic much thought I decided to post:
20 years ago my 19 year old son was driving home from football practice. He was giving a couple of other players a ride home. They all played for our local community college. He was dropping the first friend off when a group of guys started shooting at another group of guys that was standing nearby. No connection between my son and his friends and the two groups. Two bullets hit my son and he died in the driver seat of his car. I know the circumstances are different but as Trayvon's parents do, I also know what is is to lose a son.
We got a conviction in our case and the man was given a life sentence. The sad part is that me and my family were given a life sentence too. My prayers go out to Trayvon's parents and his family because they were also given a life sentence.
Please forgive me if I've said to much.
I like what you say.
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Old July 16th, 2013, 04:54 PM
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Default Zimmerman will need his gun to protect himself.

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Originally Posted by Lakers Fan View Post
The scary thing is that Mr.Zimmerman is getting his gun back.
I think it is best that he be given back his gun so that he can protect himself. There are a lot of nitwit fringe gangbangers who are shooting people for no reason and now they think they have a reason to harm Zimmerman. If I were the Sanford mayor I would have 24-hour police protection given to Zimmerman and his family just like they do with President Obama and his associates.
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Old July 16th, 2013, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne Russo View Post
I agree with Moiraine, I only offer my thoughts and prayers for the families involved, and to the hundreds of children of color, that have been killed since this happened. Where is the out rage there?
Luanne, you make a very good point.

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Old July 16th, 2013, 10:19 PM
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There are only 2 people who knew the reality of what happened on that eventful day .One of them is dead . The rest of us will never know for sure.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne Russo View Post
I agree with Moiraine, I only offer my thoughts and prayers for the families involved, and to the hundreds of children of color, that have been killed since this happened. Where is the out rage there?
This is my thought too. You'd think this is the only time this has happened.
I too have my thoughts about this case. I will only say this. From what I gather, he was not guilty, but that didn't mean not guilty in itself. He was acquitted based on laws. They looked for something to charge him with, but based on law, they couldn't connect the dots.
People have said the jury instructions were confusing. But remember, those instructions were decided upon by both the prosecution and the defense.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 09:14 AM
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Luanne...within the African American community there is great outrage...the difference is the media does not consider it of value to cover...same when an African American child or woman is kidnapped or missing...remember the Susan Smith story...the right wing media ate that up because she lied and said an African American male kidnapped her children...talk about racial profiling

Again I urge all of you to invite your friends/ co workers who are African Americans with sons to your home for dinner and dialogue. and. ask them why this incident has hit such a nerve and galvinized our Country

After you have this dialogue, turn on FOX cable and watch with your African American friends, an evening of "fair and balance" commentary
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Old July 17th, 2013, 10:29 AM
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Speaking of the media, are you upset with NBC for editing the 911 tape to make it seem like Zimmerman was profiling Trayvon?

Are you upset that Eric Holder is talking to the NAACP about the Stand your ground law when it wasn't used in Florida for this case.

Are you upset that Holder isn't opening an office in Chicago, where every day a black child is killed?

Are you outraged that the unemployment rate for AA youth is at 25%, and this is one of the reasons crime is so bad?

I am outraged, because I care!!!!! You mentioned Dr. King. He would be so disappointed in what is going on. He gave his life for the people of color to have rights. He was the reason your child has just as many rights as mine.

What do they do with that power? Fight each other in the media, protest in the streets by trying to burn down businesses, and best of all, marching on Washington. Dr. King marched, because there was nothing else to do. That time is over. Now it is time to work together to make changes.

The president should be doing more. He has had 4 and a half years to make a difference in the black community. What has he done Venice? Fighting crime in the hood? Wars on drugs that are killing our black youth? What about jobs to put people back to work, so they don't have the time to cause trouble? What about corruption in Washington that is costing millions of dollars, that could be used for programs listed above.

I will also tell you something that I learned in school. You accuse people of doing something like being a racist, and after awhile, people figure why not, if that is what people believe.

Venice, I stand with you, not in front, and not behind, in trying to educate on what needs to be done, but I am about to lose faith that anyone really wants us to walk side by side as not a color but as AMERICANS.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 11:00 AM
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In my opinion the POTUS should remove US troops from every country except for the USA . All the money spent outside of this country could be spent to eradicate poverty and to end gang warfare .

When I was a kid living in NYC there were gangs but perhaps 2 or 3 and they never bothered anyone but the rival gangs . There is absolutely no reason why there should be hundreds of thousands of gang members in this country.
It is up to the President to eradicate them.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 01:26 PM
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Luanne...at this stage of my life and after all I have experienced, especially since I moved to the deep south, I don't get upset about the issues you mentioned, because I choose to focus on where I can make a difference at the day to day level
I choose to provide opportunities for young African American kids (ages 9-12) who attend my Church to attend Space Camp in Huntsville, a week at Jazz Camp in Litchfield CT, attend cultural events (theatre, workshops, dance troupes) outside of their comfort zone and attend special events at the WW2 Museum so they can understand how the sacrifices of my Father's generation made things possibke for them....oh, and with the help of my neighbor who is White and a teacher in the local public school...we pair them up with a White schoolmate...Once a year my son works out a deal with the local air station to fly his F-15 to the base andcai take the kids to meet him and find out how he achieved his goals (fyi he just earned his PhD)
They have met POTUS Obama and General Colin Powell when they was in New Orleans. I was probably more excited then the kids.
The only way to affect change is to capture kids when they are young and show them there is a different way and that races have more in common then difference. That is how my parents raised me, we raised our son and my son and his wife are raising my grandson...there are several concern African Amerifan men quietly doing the same things that I do.
However, what frustrates me is that we are living in a society where there is a very angry group of people, that would like to see this Country turned back to the 1950's..the election of our Country's first President who does not look like them has brought this insanity out
However, I always share with my kids that there are good people of all colors and bad people of all colors and you have to learn to spot them and it's not always who you at first blush think which is which
t
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Old July 17th, 2013, 03:35 PM
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Our friend Todd can relate to this...I grew up in the 60's in rural farming upstate New York about 40 miles east of where Todd lived with his bride for several years. That was an exciting time for any young man, Vietnam War was blazing, I was lucky enough to attend Woodstock, met LSD guru Timothy Leary, &Ali when he was stripped of his crown, was arrested and attempted prosecuted by then assistant DA G, Gordon Liddy (of WaterGate fame) for being racially profiled, handcuffed thrown in jail because I made the mistake of having my friend who was White and female in my car after dark, and actually saw a KKK cross burning my freshman year of college...you would think I would have had a strong foundation for not liking people not of my race
But by the Grace of God and the strength , love and strong guidance of my parents who raised all of their sons to look beyond the color of one's skin, I realized that people of all colors contributed to my success because they recognize that I had abilty...the all White volunteer fire department in our small town gave my Dad a check every August to cover the cost for my college books, 2 of my White teachers in 7th grade demanded that the school counselor place me in their classes which forced me into the college prep track, I worked my way thru college because the local White store manager of the A&P where I worked after school in high school, reached out to his counterpart in my college town. My point is even in the 60's, people of all colors came together in my town where only 2 families were African American,to invest in my potential. They also protected me from the evil side of racism
I share this story, because in today's tense racial climate, if we all work together to invest in young African Americans like Travon, there might be different outcomes...fyi, my female friend that was in my car when I was profiled, cuffed and taken to jail, called her Dad, who was friends with my Dad and also the Deputy Director of the NY State troopers who came to the jail to get me out. Was not a good day for G. Gordon
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Old July 17th, 2013, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venice View Post
Our friend Todd can relate to this...I grew up in the 60's in rural farming upstate New York about 40 miles east of where Todd lived with his bride for several years. That was an exciting time for any young man, Vietnam War was blazing, I was lucky enough to attend Woodstock, met LSD guru Timothy Leary, &Ali when he was stripped of his crown, was arrested and attempted prosecuted by then assistant DA G, Gordon Liddy (of WaterGate fame) for being racially profiled, handcuffed thrown in jail because I made the mistake of having my friend who was White and female in my car after dark, and actually saw a KKK cross burning my freshman year of college...you would think I would have had a strong foundation for not liking people not of my race
But by the Grace of God and the strength , love and strong guidance of my parents who raised all of their sons to look beyond the color of one's skin, I realized that people of all colors contributed to my success because they recognize that I had abilty...the all White volunteer fire department in our small town gave my Dad a check every August to cover the cost for my college books, 2 of my White teachers in 7th grade demanded that the school counselor place me in their classes which forced me into the college prep track, I worked my way thru college because the local White store manager of the A&P where I worked after school in high school, reached out to his counterpart in my college town. My point is even in the 60's, people of all colors came together in my town where only 2 families were African American,to invest in my potential. They also protected me from the evil side of racism
I share this story, because in today's tense racial climate, if we all work together to invest in young African Americans like Travon, there might be different outcomes...fyi, my female friend that was in my car when I was profiled, cuffed and taken to jail, called her Dad, who was friends with my Dad and also the Deputy Director of the NY State troopers who came to the jail to get me out. Was not a good day for G. Gordon
Love your story, and sure love the people who helped with your outcome. All of you did good.

My story has been told here in pieces, over the years. I was raised in Atlanta in the 60's and 70's. My mother and father were involved with rights of all colors. I was really raised by a black housekeeper. Who told my dad one day, that he should call her a maid, because "Housekeepers have to wear those funny uniforms".

My mother worked downtown, but wouldn't let my brother and I go there except at Christmas, and to the dentist. The one time I remember seeing the white restroom, and the colored(a name that always bothered me) I was full of questions. My mom said that white people were sometimes stupid when it came to people, and until they became smarter, the world would be in bad shape. Please remember I was maybe 7 years old, so it really didn't mean much to me, but I could see the sadness in my mothers face. She would not use the bathroom in any public place, but would wait until she got to her office, which wasn't separate.

I remember one time about that age when we used public transportation to get to downtown. It was a big deal for me, as a kid, but even I realized the AA's were in the back of the bus. I thought they just wanted to sit back there, because it was the coolest, until my mom explained the reason. On the way home we saw Annie Grace our housekeeper/maid, and of course I took off to her in the back. She and my mom were both so sad, because we loved Annie Grace, and would have normally been together on the bus. White people being stupid again.

Annie Grace told me years ago, that one day I was sitting at her feet, and was rubbing her arm. She said "Honey child, what are you doing?" I told her I was trying to rub off the black, so she could be white and sit in the front of the bus. As I think back, it makes me want to cry.

I keep saying stupid, but it was just a matter for most of being uneducated in the facts about race. They heard, and believed what they heard, without asking questions.

I grew up with Dr. King in our house. Not him really, but what some seem to forget he was also a preacher, and Annie Grace went to his church. She would buy a tape of his sermon, and bring it to our house, and play it for us on the real to real my dad bought just for that reason.

I had grown up in the church, and had listened to many preachers, but none had the passion as Dr. King. We would also listen to Daddy King, Dr. King's father, and also mamma King, who played the piano.

When Dr. King was not on that Sunday's tape, I didn't know that he was off risking his life for change. I didn't know that everyday might be his last.

I would give anything to hear those tapes again.

When Annie Grace retired after many years, she took that real to real with her, with my parents blessing.

I am proud of my parents for doing what they could in a time, when all were not equal. She was always buying things for Annie Graces church members, most of which were very poor.

But I am also proud of the fact that we were around those with pure hearts. I also carried that on with my own children.

I mentioned in another thread about the time I used the N word, when I discovered who had killed my son, but what I didn't say, and should have was that when I realized what I had said, I cried, because that wasn't who I was.

The simple fact is we are all the same. We need to work together to make this a better place for all our children.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 05:43 PM
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Luanne..just because I have been away from this board for awhile...I knew that of all people that post on these boards, you would have the most empathy for this current situation and for Travon's Mom...no one should have to bury their child under this circumstances

I recently attended the graduation class of 2013 School of Advanced Air and Space Studies at Maxwell AFB to celebrate my son's doctoral ceremony. There were 4 doctoral candidates and 31 master candidates...it was the best and the brightest and was inclusive representing male/female, White/Black/Hispanic/International/all military branches. It told me that our Country's future is bright and the leadership of our Armed Forces are in good hands

In these times we have to seek out,, support and celebrate success stories of our children of all colors..we must find ways to be inclusive and turn off cable tv and talk radio and the majority of Americans, who have good intentions, must no longer be silent when the flame thowers on both the extreme left/right spew their filth

In a moment of irony, when Newt Gingrich made his infamous statement during the Republican primary that " poor Black kids should be after school part time janitors" I was onboard the Carnival Freedom on my annual jazz cruise with 3200+ African American smooth jazz fans watching it on the LED big screen on the lido deck...about 100 of us stopped in our tracks because most of our parents worked manual jobs and told us our "only job" was to work hard in school and go to college...we skipped the midnight jam session and went to the back (pizza area) of the ship and mapped out a plan to each "adopt" one class in our local community elementary public school, and make Newt eat his words. The House Republicans slashed the Head Start Program, the single most successful program to start out our kids, yet increase subsides to banks..what is wrong with that picture?

FYI..next time you and/or your husband go to Germany again, if you see a model for the VW new microbus, please bring one back for my collection. Next month for my birthday I am treating myself to a 2013 R turbo beetle 6 speed manual so my grandson can drive me around in 6 years
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Old July 17th, 2013, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venice View Post
Luanne..just because I have been away from this board for awhile...I knew that of all people that post on these boards, you would have the most empathy for this current situation and for Travon's Mom...no one should have to bury their child under this circumstances

I recently attended the graduation class of 2013 School of Advanced Air and Space Studies at Maxwell AFB to celebrate my son's doctoral ceremony. There were 4 doctoral candidates and 31 master candidates...it was the best and the brightest and was inclusive representing male/female, White/Black/Hispanic/International/all military branches. It told me that our Country's future is bright and the leadership of our Armed Forces are in good hands

In these times we have to seek out,, support and celebrate success stories of our children of all colors..we must find ways to be inclusive and turn off cable tv and talk radio and the majority of Americans, who have good intentions, must no longer be silent when the flame thowers on both the extreme left/right spew their filth

In a moment of irony, when Newt Gingrich made his infamous statement during the Republican primary that " poor Black kids should be after school part time janitors" I was onboard the Carnival Freedom on my annual jazz cruise with 3200+ African American smooth jazz fans watching it on the LED big screen on the lido deck...about 100 of us stopped in our tracks because most of our parents worked manual jobs and told us our "only job" was to work hard in school and go to college...we skipped the midnight jam session and went to the back (pizza area) of the ship and mapped out a plan to each "adopt" one class in our local community elementary public school, and make Newt eat his words. The House Republicans slashed the Head Start Program, the single most successful program to start out our kids, yet increase subsides to banks..what is wrong with that picture?

FYI..next time you and/or your husband go to Germany again, if you see a model for the VW new microbus, please bring one back for my collection. Next month for my birthday I am treating myself to a 2013 R turbo beetle 6 speed manual so my grandson can drive me around in 6 years
Does this mean all is good?
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Old July 17th, 2013, 07:29 PM
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With us...of course
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Old July 17th, 2013, 11:42 PM
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The jury followed Florida law regarding it the so-called "stand your ground law".

The real question is: should Zimmerman find himself alone in a public place in Florida and happen to get shot ... and the shooter claims "stand your ground".

How would anybody who supports the current verdict oppose the next one?

Time will tell.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 09:46 AM
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A classic example of the law of unintended consequences
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Old July 18th, 2013, 03:21 PM
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I've spent the last hour and half going back and reading and watching the coverage of this and all I will say is that: I'm very glad that Anderson Cooper, Nancy Grace, Rachel Maddow, Shaun Hannity and others in the media aren't the jury of our legal system.

The unfounded manipulation of evidence, sensationalism, innuendo, and outright lies, in order to slant people's opinions, has made me quite sad with our media.

Take care,
Mike
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Old July 18th, 2013, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
I've spent the last hour and half going back and reading and watching the coverage of this and all I will say is that: I'm very glad that Anderson Cooper, Nancy Grace, Rachel Maddow, Shaun Hannity and others in the media aren't the jury of our legal system.

The unfounded manipulation of evidence, sensationalism, innuendo, and outright lies, in order to slant people's opinions, has made me quite sad with our media.

Take care,
Mike

You do realize that all of the aforementioned will very likely one day be on jury panels .There are virtually no exclusions any longer.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 11:27 PM
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When local law enforcement conducts training for community neighborhood watch organizations they stress the following
-situational awareness (why it looks out of place) and how to record and document
- notify law enforcement and follow their instruction
- keep a safe distance and under no circumstances confront the person
- patrol in pairs
- no firearms

Louisiana's Stand Your Ground differs from Florida
- person has the right to public access without being challenged by someone other then law enforcement
- an aggressor cannot claim stand your ground just because they are getting their behind whipped

Zimmerman might not want to relocate to Louisiana
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Old July 19th, 2013, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venice View Post
When local law enforcement conducts training for community neighborhood watch organizations they stress the following
-situational awareness (why it looks out of place) and how to record and document
- notify law enforcement and follow their instruction
- keep a safe distance and under no circumstances confront the person
- patrol in pairs
- no firearms

Louisiana's Stand Your Ground differs from Florida
- person has the right to public access without being challenged by someone other then law enforcement
- an aggressor cannot claim stand your ground just because they are getting their behind whipped

Zimmerman might not want to relocate to Louisiana
One of the things the I, and most law enforcement officers, will agree on is that an armed and lone "Neighborhood Watch" person is one of the worst things a neighborhood can have. This is basically a "vigilante".

You are correct in that the "Aggressor" cannot claim stand your ground if they are getting their butt whipped. However, there must be proof that the person who was getting their butt whipped and "stood their ground" was the aggressor. Hard to do when it's two people, no witnesses, and one of them is dead.

Louisiana and Florida law aren't really much different and in the Zimmerman case the result and arguments of the defense would probably have been the same.

Here is an interesting article on the subject.

Understanding Louisiana's Stand-Your-Ground and Castle Laws | NOLA.com

Take care,
Mike
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