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  #31 (permalink)  
Old May 15th, 2003, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Nicole,

Shipboard staff is paid BELOW minimum wage AND the 8 bucks an hour is for the dockworkers in the US!

First, all vessels of Princess Cruises are under British registry -- and consequently are subject to British laws, including applicable minimum wages, for all personnel. British law probably does allow "tip credits" for personnel who ordinarily expect to receive tips in the performance of their duties (stewards, waiters, bar staff, some spa staff, etc.), just like our minimum wage laws here in the United States. It may shock you to learn that the best restaurants in this country pay waitstaff about $2.00 per hour -- but competent waitstaff may earn $25 or more per hour in tips. The same is true on cruise ships. Staff who do not receive tips obviously have higher wages. You can be sure that Princess ships do not have "third world" wage scales because British law would not allow it.

Second, the dockworkers basically are unskilled labor -- and they probably are covered under union contracts.

Sounds like you work for Princess Norm.

No, I have never worked for Princess. I once did own stock in the parent company, but I sold all of my shares when the other shareholders voted to approve the merger with Carnival Corporation -- and I'll be cruising with other lines from now on because I am not thrilled with what I have seen of Carnival Corporation.

... since THEY pay the premiums and only pay the incruance company when they *feel* like it is what it looks like to their employees.SO before you jump down my throat Norm, please check your facts FIRST.

No corporation can get away with paying premiums when the corporation feels like it. The insurance companies have way too much clout, and would never stand for it.

Your statements are so outlandish that they don't even pass the "snicker" test. (Basically, this means that the whole audience snickers at what you say because it's so obvious that it's not true.)

Norm.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old May 15th, 2003, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Nicole,

These companies refuse to hire anyone that is Union unless law mandates it, that's why they build their OWN piers, so they don't have to do this!

Princess does not own piers in any ports in the United States. Rather, Princess uses cruise terminals operated by public authorities, such as the Los Angeles Port Authority.

Norm.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old May 15th, 2003, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines


Hi,

Many cruise line employees are from all over the world, especially third world countries. Working on a cruise line believe it or not may be paradise for some of these people. Working conditions in their home countires would be 100 times worse. No labor laws at all. Have you not noticed that most of these employees seem very content and nobody is sticking a gun to their heads making them have to work there, life is good and much better then a place with no laws, jobs, and unrest.

I commend all cruise ship employees as it is indeed hard work, when was the last time you worked four months straight?

PEB, I agree totally on your statement, even land jobs strench the limits one time or another.

To happy employees and happy cruises

Peter
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old May 15th, 2003, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

First, all vessels of Princess Cruises are under British registry

Checks your facts Norm. they are Bermudan Registered not British, ergo the Jones Act. Only P&O was British registered. Second, you have no clue about the insurance issue, so your statement is way OFF. Facts are facts and I have the proof to back up my statements, where is yours?

<<<I once did own stock in the parent company, but I sold all of my shares when the other shareholders voted to approve the merger with Carnival Corporation -- and I'll be cruising with other lines from now on because I am not thrilled with what I have seen of Carnival Corporation>>>.

A real Princess Loreate! Check their inspections Norm, we'd sure hate to lose you

Post Edited (05-15-03 20:01)
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old May 15th, 2003, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

PS Norm:

Once again, I am talking about the office workers in the US not the Ship personnel....so you see Bermudan law or Bristish law doesn't apply in these circumstances.........and yes Princess has built their own pier, you can check that out in Seattle it's called Pier 30 which also wasn't complete ON TIME!
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 08:09 AM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

I'm always suspicious of those who claim altruism as their motive to rally to a cause. Usually there is an underlying agenda for the effort. Care to 'fess up and tell us what your motivation is, Nicki?

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Usually there is an underlying agenda for the effort. Care to 'fess up and tell us what your motivation is, Nicki?


Sure Okie, my motivation is the employees of these lines!
I believe in poeple being treated fairly and with respect.
I hear way too many horror stories. One day I was walking by a building that
holds the offices for a particular line. this lady was outside smoking and said to
a person "You work on the *th floor don't you?" She looked at her and said how did you know? The lady responded with "I can always tell who works there, not one person that comes out of this building and works on that floor is happy"
What does that tell you Okie?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 12:44 PM
Peabodynvl
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Sounds like every office worker in the Washington area, Nikki! I don't know many people who are happy in their jobs.

Pea
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

"Checks your facts Norm. they are Bermudan Registered not British, ergo the Jones Act. Only P&O was British registered. Second, you have no clue about the insurance issue, so your statement is way OFF. Facts are facts and I have the proof to back up my statements, where is yours?"


Hmmm, seems like the facts are NOT in your favor.

First, what does the Jones Act have to do with anything? The Jones Act has to do with cargo, perhaps you mean the Passenger Services Act.

Second, Princess has several UK registered ships. Here are the FACTS:
http://www.poprincess.com/mainsite/companyc3.htm


By the way if I'm not mistaken, both Gibraltar and Bermuda are British Colonies. So in essence, all the ships are registered in the UK one way or another.

Makes one wonder the validity of other "facts" you seem to be spewing.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

First, what does the Jones Act have to do with anything? The Jones Act has to do with cargo, perhaps you mean the Passenger Services Act.

Norm;

The Jones act is about cruise Lines also! Check the Princess Brochures NORM.
They cannot link two cruises together unless the ship STOPS at a foreign port and Vancouver BC Does NOT Qualify!

Second Norm, Is Liberia a UK country also? READ your brochures NORM, the UK has nothing to do with this! Like I said NORM, this is about the US ......................last I checked, we are our own Country, unless you would like to move to the UK Norm, maybe they would appreciate your misguided flaming there!
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 12:52 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Never said Washington there Pea
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Wrong again!

"The Jones act is about cruise Lines also! Check the Princess Brochures NORM.
They cannot link two cruises together unless the ship STOPS at a foreign port and Vancouver BC Does NOT Qualify!"

Bzzzz. Although it occasionally is refered to as the law that governs transporting people aboard ships, the Jones Act of 1920 governs cargo. (There is a Jones Act of 1970 that governs other things.) The Passenger Services Act of 1886 govenrs the transportation of people.

See the article on the bottom of this page.
http://www.marinelog.com/DOCS/ARCH/oct16.html


"Second Norm, Is Liberia a UK country also? READ your brochures NORM, the UK has nothing to do with this! Like I said NORM, this is about the US ......................last I checked, we are our own Country, unless you would like to move to the UK Norm, maybe they would appreciate your misguided flaming there!"

Who mentioned Liberia? Please indicate which Princess ships are registered in Liberia. once again, the link for you:
http://www.poprincess.com/mainsite/companyc3.htm

Any more "facts" you wish to present? Seems to me that Princess fired you and this is your misguided attempt at getting back at them.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

When my employees STOP complaining, I start to worry. When I'm nice to the people I report to, they get nervous. That's the nature of work, and why we get paid. If it was enjoyable, we'd do it just because it's fun.

"Why dost though concern thyself with the mote in my eye, and care nothing about the beam in thine own?"

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Nicole,

Checks your facts Norm. they are Bermudan Registered not British, ergo the Jones Act.

Not so fast. First, Bermuda and Gibraltar are both territories of the United Kingdom, and thus subject to British law. If you look at the stern (in port) or at the mast (at sea), you will discover that all Princess vessels proudly display the "red ensign" of the United Kingdom -- and you also will see the Union Jack if you look at the jackstaff at the bow when these vessels are in port.

For the record, here's the complete list of home ports for the entire Princess Cruises fleet, by class of vessel.

MV Royal Princess - London

MV Regal Princess - London

MV Sun Princess - London
MV Dawn Princess - London

MV Grand Princess - Hamilton
MV Golden Princess - Hamilton
MV Star Princess - Hamilton

MV Coral Princess - Hamilton

MV Pacific Princess - Gibraltar
MV Tahitian Princess - Gibraltar

The former MV Pacific Princess, the former MV Ocean Princess, and the former MV Sea Princess also proudly displayed the home port of London on their sterns prior to their departure from the Princess Cruises fleet.

You'll notice that the ships registered in Hamilton are precisely the ships that have wedding chapels, and thus that offer weddings at sea with the captain officiating. My understanding is that the decision to register these ships in Bermuda rather than in England is related to the legalities of the "wedding at sea" program rather than due to any difference in wages or taxes.

And since Bermuda actually has a higher standard of living and higher wage scales than the motherland, it's highly unlikely that the laws there would tolerate lower minimum wages.

Norm.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Pea,

I don't know many people who are happy in their jobs.

I seem to meet a lot of people who are ecstatic in their jobs whenever I take a Princess cruise. They are inevitably found aboard ship -- otherwise known as the officers, the staff, and the crew -- and the depth of happiness that they exhibit cannot be faked, so it clearly is not an act.

Alas, Nicole needs to get a life....

Norm.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Nicole,

First, what does the Jones Act have to do with anything? The Jones Act has to do with cargo, perhaps you mean the Passenger Services Act.

Norm;

The Jones act is about cruise Lines also! Check the Princess Brochures NORM.


I'm not the person who posted that, so you're doing a pretty good job of demonstrating just how factually challenged you are.

Also, I have yet to see any mention of the Jones Act in the Princess brochures -- although you are correct in saying that the Jones Act does apply to passenger services.

They cannot link two cruises together unless the ship STOPS at a foreign port and Vancouver BC Does NOT Qualify!

The Jones Act does not say anything whatsoever about cruises or linking two cruises together. Rather, the Jones Act basically restricts the operation of vessels of foreign flag to the following.

>> 1. A vessel of foreign may disembark passengers in the U. S. port where they embarked if either (a) it has not called at any other ports or (b) it has called at any foreign port after their embarkation.

>> 2. A vessel of foreign flag may disembark passengers in any U. S. port without restriction if it has called at any "distant foreign port" after their embarkation.

>> 3. A vessel of foreign flag may transport passengers between any port of the United States and any foreign port.

Generally, the ports of North America, Bermuda, and the Caribbean islands other than Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao, and those belonging to the nations of South America are "near foreign ports" while the ports of Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and Oceana are "distant foreign ports" under the Jones Act.

Note that each Princess itinerary does meet one or another of these restrictions.

Second Norm, Is Liberia a UK country also?

No -- but the Peninsular & Oriental Steam Navigation Company ("P&O") reflagged the vessels that had been of Liberian registry in Princess Cruises fleet in England prior to the demerger of "P&O Princess Cruises Plc. a couple years ago, thus taking Liberia out of the picture completely.

BTW, the decision to reflag the vessels was part of an agreement between P&O and the British government concerning the manner of computing taxes on the vessels themselves. The agreement had no bearing whatsoever on the wages paid to the crews of the affected vessels.

Like I said NORM, this is about the US ......................last I checked, we are our own Country, unless you would like to move to the UK Norm, maybe they would appreciate your misguided flaming there!

It sounds to me like the flames are coming from your end rather than from mine -- especially since I did not submit the post to which you were replying!

Norm.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old May 16th, 2003, 11:49 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

>>Second Norm, Is Liberia a UK country also?

Liberia is not a UK country. Liberia was founded in the last century by American slave returning to Africa. Hence the name "Liberia" for Liberty.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old May 17th, 2003, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

but the Peninsular & Oriental Steam Navigation Company ("P&O") reflagged the vessels that had been of Liberian registry in Princess Cruises fleet in England prior to the demerger of "P&O Princess Cruises Plc. a couple years ago, thus taking Liberia out of the picture completely.

Norm, P&O and Princess are two different companies. P&O was the parent company to Princess and operates out of the UK Princess operates out of the US
The Coral and Island are registered back in Liberia. Like I said read your brochures.
UK law has nothing to do with the United States and their labor laws!
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old May 17th, 2003, 06:06 AM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Any more "facts" you wish to present? Seems to me that Princess fired you and this is your misguided attempt at getting back at them.


Are you saying black people are stupid and can't hold a job?
Wrong again, never worked for them, don't want to AND this isnt only about Princess,it is about ALL the cruise Lines!

Post Edited (05-17-03 05:27)
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old May 17th, 2003, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Nikki -

What were you responding to in your last post? I never saw where race ever came into this conversation. I understand your have issues with cruiselines, but accusing someone of being racist when race has never even come up in the board conversation is uncalled for.

If this is what this conversation has disintegrated, I for one am not going to continue reading it and contributing further.

Pea
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old May 17th, 2003, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Nicole,

Norm, P&O and Princess are two different companies. P&O was the parent company to Princess and operates out of the UK Princess operates out of the US

Let's be a little more precise here. The Peninsular & Oriental Steam Navigation Company ("P&O") "demerged" (that is, spun off) all of its cruise business as a separate company named "P&O Princess Cruises Plc." about two or three years ago. About nine months prior to the demerger, however, the parent company reflagged all vessels that were not of British registry in the United Kindgom. The demerged cruise company operated several cruise lines -- Princess Cruises in the North American market, P&O Cruises and Swan Hellenic Cruises in the British market, P&O Cruises in the Australian market, and Aida, A'rosa, and Seetours in the German market -- prior to its recent merger with Carnival Corporation.

The Coral and Island are registered back in Liberia.

Factually challenged again, I see. In fact, MV Coral Princess is registered in Bermuda (http://www.princess.com/news/article...a510&submit=pk) and the future MV Island Princess is not registered yet because she is still under construction at the Chantiers de l'Atlantique shipyard in St. Nazaire, France.

UK law has nothing to do with the United States and their labor laws!

Of course -- but UK law applies to all vessels of British registry. All countries of Western Europe have labor laws similar to those of the United States, and in some cases even more stringent.

Norm.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old May 17th, 2003, 07:53 PM
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old May 17th, 2003, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

"AND this isnt only about Princess,it is about ALL the cruise Lines!"

Aah, a do-gooder. Never has so much harm been done except by those who say, "I just want to help."

At least she's not blaming it all on Bush.

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  #54 (permalink)  
Old May 18th, 2003, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Aah, a do-gooder. Never has so much harm been done except by those who say, "I just want to help."

At least she's not blaming it all on Bush.


You know Okie, if the world didn't have people that actually care, it would be a sorry place. By the way, what does Bush have to do with anything? He's not my favorite person and yes he should be blamed for a lot of things.

Darren
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old May 18th, 2003, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Question for Nikki: Exactly what is your expertise in this matter? Do you work for the FLSA? Let me ask you another question...Have you read the personnel manuals and summary plan descriptions of these employers' benefits booklets (eg: the STD SPD??) If you're sooo positive you have a case....then why post it on a cruisemates bulletin board?? Take it further!!!! IF you make derrogative statements against someone or an organization, you should have solid "proof" and you should also take it to the APPROPRIATE channels....not this one. just my opinion of course!!
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old May 18th, 2003, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

i guess I just have to disagree, Darren. I think the world would be a much better place if fewer people were sticking their noses into others' business. "Caring" and "meddling" are two very different words that often can be used interchangeably.

The Bush comment was sarcasm.

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  #57 (permalink)  
Old May 18th, 2003, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

>http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/5880647.htm<

What does the posting of this URL have to do with the discussion? This has to do with Royal Caribbean and Celebrity - Princess was not mentioned as doing anything wrong.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old May 18th, 2003, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Have you all beat this to death enough?? There are always going to to diparities between Companies, Cruise Lines, Restraunts. People will always be making minimum wage or less. Some have choices, some don't. Some companies are great to work for, some aren't.

Never the less, I'm still going to enojoy my First Cruise on the Island Princess, tip more for good service, less for bad.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old May 20th, 2003, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Labor Practices by cruise lines

Frank, I believe Nikki is reffering to all cruise lines, not just Princess.
That would be why that particular link.

Darren
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