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  #31 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2006, 02:07 PM
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Here is a good update with links for pictures.

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc.../60719008/1006
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Old July 19th, 2006, 02:28 PM
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Tdcatch,

My thoughts to you would be to get a new Travel Agent!!!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2006, 02:30 PM
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Hey tdcatch.

I don't know about switching to a different cruise line. But I do know that I would switch to a different travel agent due to their policy.....
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Old July 19th, 2006, 03:39 PM
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Janmd,

As we have been saying- the cruise business is pushing these ships to be ready when they really aren't.
They need to take their time. As with the shake down- the ac should have been addressed, the ref. also.
This is one issued with the mechanical issues that should have been taken care of when the ship was doing the sea trials.


The ship is on her fourth nine night cruise, after crossing the Atlantic without passengers, so she has been operating for a couple months. She is well past the point where a problem would have surfaced during sea trials.

It's also not at all clear that operator error is not the ultimate cause of this incident. It's possible that somebody bumped a control dial and it's also possible that somebody entered the wrong value for rudder angle when programming the autopilot unit for this leg of the voyage.

It seems like since Princess was taken over by Carnival there have been problems.

Carnival Corporation had a slew of serious incidents in the 2001-2004 time frame of the types that inadequate maintenance and inattention to safety and sanitation would cause. Having seen clear evidence of neglected maintenance on that company's vessels during ports of call, I decided to stop cruising with Princess when the shareholders of the parent company, Carnival Plc. (formerly known as P&O Princess Plc.), voted to merge operaitons with Carnival Corp. I also posted the fact that I had decided to switch to Cebrity for this reason on this board at the time. I also noted, at the time, that it takes a while for deficient maintenance to take its toll, so I figured that it would take perhaps a couple years for such incidents to start to occur on Princess. I have not heard of many recent incidents on Carnival Corporation's other lines in the last two years or so, but I'm not sure whether that's because the company solved the problems or because the press stopped reporting the incidents.

In any case, I have no regrets after seven cruises with Celbrity, tut your choice....

Norm.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 03:44 PM
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tdcatch,

I am feeling not so confident in Princess all of a sudden. We booked a cruise aboard the Star Princess for next February, knowing full well about the fire on that very ship. I know all the damage has been repaired and that they have supposedly made some changes to make the balconies less flammable, but then this new thing happens and I am starting to wonder about Princess.

My travel agent has a non-refundable deposit policy (unless I book something else with him) but I am considering either cancelling or at least changing our cruise line.

Thoughts?


Princess has rebuilt the balconies aboard MV Star Princess using non-flammable materials and installed fire detection systems, so there's a lot less danger of a similar fire.

That said, I still don't trust Carnival Corporation, but your choice....

Norm.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 03:50 PM
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Hey... TERRIBLE that this has happened...

Anyone else scheduled on the 8/7 to 8/15 sailing out of Brooklyn, NY ? Going with 20 others ... kind of worried...
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Old July 19th, 2006, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
I also posted the fact that I had decided to switch to Cebrity for this reason on this board at the time
Norm,
And since that time how many cruises has Celebrity cancelled due to emergency dry docks to repair problems with their ships.

And then there was the Captain of the Mercury being arrested for being inebbriated on duty.

All the lines run into various problems at times that aren't forseeable, and are unfortunate. Don't wear blinders
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2006, 05:32 PM
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We have no intention of cancelling our Crown Princess cruise on 9/30. Maybe we are fatalists or fools, but we have sailed the Sun twice, Grand, Golden, and Carribean Princess. Add to that Carnival Valor and Legend. ALL cruises top notch and the way I figure it, in today's world of uncertainty, we are probably safer at sea. (All naysayers can get under the bed and assume the fetal position.)

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Old July 19th, 2006, 05:53 PM
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15 degrees is alot! When you take off on a commercial airplane, you are at an angle of about 3 degrees & we all know how that feels when you try to lean forward.

I agree with the above poster's idea. Maybe the instructions on what to do when the ship tilts should be included in Muster drills. Even if passengers don't give it a second thought, at least instinctively you'll react to what you learn. Human mind is amazing under duress.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2006, 05:54 PM
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I do have to say when we cruised the Crown Princess July2-11,2006, this ship was sailing for 18 days at this point. Why wasn't the air conditioning functioning properly? Why was a tripple balcony cabin sold with no 3rd berth? Why didn't the fridge work the entire 9 days. All of these issues were reported to the Pusor's desk and we spoke to a Supervisor and nothing was resolved! I have cruise also on the Carnival Legend Ship and woulds NEVER cruise a Carnival ship again. I am an experienced cruiser, 18+ cruises and leaving on Aug6-20th on the Adventures of the Seas and Sept 23-Oct7th 2006 on the Radiance of the Seas. Yes you can encounter problems with Any Cruiseline, but I feel the poor tasting food, low class shows and lack of properly functioning amenities are unacceptable for any cruiseline. I did encounter all of those issue on the Crown and would not even consider Cruising that line again. I have spoke to other people I met and became friends with on that cruise and the feelings were mutual about that cruise. I have to say out of all the cruiselines that I sailed with ( Celeberty, Royal Carribean, Holland America, Carnival, Princess and Cunard) I have only had negative responses to Princess and Carnival! Let's all say a prayer for the passengers and the injured on the Crown mishap that they return home safely and fully recover. I have made my choice to stay with Royal Carribean Cruiseline.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2006, 06:00 PM
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http://www.princess.com/news/article...rticleId=na821


News Home News


News

7/19/2006
For Crown Princess Passengers Scheduled to Depart on V3628 -- July 20, 2006


Please note that the itinerary for the above mentioned voyage has changed. We regret to inform you that, due to Crown Princess' delayed arrival into New York, the July 20th voyage will now depart Saturday, July 22nd. The updated itinerary is as follows:
Date Port Arrive Depart
Saturday, July 22 New York 7:15 am 5 pm
Sunday, July 23 At sea
Monday, July 24 At sea
Tuesday, July 25 Grand Turk 7 am 4 pm
Wednesday, July 26 At sea
Thursday, July 27 Bermuda (West End) 8 am 5 pm
Friday, July 28 At sea
Saturday, July 29 New York 7:15 am 5 pm


Passengers sailing on this voyage will receive a 50% refund of their cruise fare. Refunds will be processed automatically in the same form by which we received payment. Out of pocket expenses incurred as a result of airline change fees may be submitted for reimbursement. Passengers requiring hotel accommodations should contact 1-800-PRINCESS.

Those passengers choosing to cancel this voyage may do so without cancellation fees.

We sincerely apologize for this change in itinerary and appreciate your patience and understanding
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2006, 06:01 PM
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Default July 20 th Crown Princess

There is an update for the cruisers on the Crown July 20th. The itinerary has been changed and also a 50% refund will be given to all the pax. The ship is leaving Sat. july 22 and only going to Grand Turks and Bermuda. It will be a 7 day cruise insted of 9 days. Good Luck to the ones who are flying into New York on July 20th. I wonder who will reimburse you for those costs if you made your own air and don"t carry insurance!
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2006, 07:15 PM
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The cruise ship computer constantly monitors the heading of the ship vs. the programmed path the captain or other has entered. If a feedback problem occurs in the ships monitoring of the direction of the ships servo's it could become disorented and acutally drive the controls of the ships props into extreme positioning causing an incident until someone shuts her down. An of course the faster she's movin the worse the incident. I believe this is what happened.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GYMNASTQUEENVAL
I do have to say when we cruised the Crown Princess July2-11,2006, this ship was sailing for 18 days at this point. Why wasn't the air conditioning functioning properly? Why was a tripple balcony cabin sold with no 3rd berth? Why didn't the fridge work the entire 9 days. All of these issues were reported to the Pusor's desk and we spoke to a Supervisor and nothing was resolved! I have cruise also on the Carnival Legend Ship and woulds NEVER cruise a Carnival ship again. I am an experienced cruiser, 18+ cruises and leaving on Aug6-20th on the Adventures of the Seas and Sept 23-Oct7th 2006 on the Radiance of the Seas. Yes you can encounter problems with Any Cruiseline, but I feel the poor tasting food, low class shows and lack of properly functioning amenities are unacceptable for any cruiseline. I did encounter all of those issue on the Crown and would not even consider Cruising that line again. I have spoke to other people I met and became friends with on that cruise and the feelings were mutual about that cruise. I have to say out of all the cruiselines that I sailed with ( Celeberty, Royal Carribean, Holland America, Carnival, Princess and Cunard) I have only had negative responses to Princess and Carnival! Let's all say a prayer for the passengers and the injured on the Crown mishap that they return home safely and fully recover. I have made my choice to stay with Royal Carribean Cruiseline.


I have to say that one less than pleasing experience on a cruiseline's ship should not damn the entire cruiseline. It is possible to have an unsatisfactory cruise on one ship, but have wonderful cruises on other ships in the same fleet.
Princess has a lot to offer, IMHO, in terms of beautiful, classy ships, diverse itineraries, great food, enjoyable entertainment, good shore excursions, and pleasant fellow passengers. Have not yet sailed on Carnival, but family members and friends have, and have nothing but praise for Carnival.
However, to each his/her own. For us, Princess is the way to go.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 08:24 PM
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Does anyone else find it "interesting" that the news reports about this "incident" are sparse? Usually, when there's any problem on a ship, it's "Big News". The only place I've read about it is here and on the "other big cruise site", and on the FL channel 6.

Apparently, there's now so much more "Big News" about the Middle East, that the cruise ship news isn't that important!

I just find it interesting that the major news stations haven't reported on this "incident" at all!

I guess it has to be a slow news day to hear about any cruise ship's problems , which to me means that it's not "Big News" and won't scare people off!
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Old July 19th, 2006, 09:25 PM
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Fern,

It's been big news over here, not sure why there isnt' much coverage where you are, but I believe the Middle East is a bigger story.

Isn't that a shame.... :o
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2006, 10:08 PM
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Kuki,

And since that time how many cruises has Celebrity cancelled due to emergency dry docks to repair problems with their ships.

The Azipod problems have never resulted in a complete loss of prupulsion or otherwise endangered a ship. All "twin screw" ships are perfectly capable of operating on one shaft, albeit at reduced speed.

And much to Celebrity's credit, the line has compensated passengers quite well (full refund plus free cruise), without haggling, when those incidents have happened.

And then there was the Captain of the Mercury being arrested for being inebbriated on duty.

That's a legitimate safety issue, but isolated, and the line responded very appropraitely when it occurred.

All the lines run into various problems at times that aren't forseeable, and are unfortunate. Don't wear blinders

True. My concern is when there are a lot of incidents in a very short time span that appear to have a common cause. In the 2001-2003 time span, Carnival Corporation owned about half of the world's cruise ships but had over 95% of the serious incidents.

Norm.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
15 degrees is alot! When you take off on a commercial airplane, you are at an angle of about 3 degrees & we all know how that feels when you try to lean forward.
Actually the rotation angle for a jet airliner is between 5-20 degrees after rotation the plane gains some altitude and gets "clean"(flaps up, slats closed and gear up) at many airports the plane will then assume a climb angle of about 30 degrees. But your absolutley right about 15 degrees on a ship being a lot I'm sure glad everyone came through as well as they did.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 10:23 PM
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Crawdad,

The cruise ship computer constantly monitors the heading of the ship vs. the programmed path the captain or other has entered. If a feedback problem occurs in the ships monitoring of the direction of the ships servo's it could become disorented and acutally drive the controls of the ships props into extreme positioning causing an incident until someone shuts her down. An of course the faster she's movin the worse the incident. I believe this is what happened.

The autopilots on modern cruise ships are much more sophisticated than that. The ship's officers usually enter a destination (latitude and longitude) and either a desired time of arrival or a desired speed of travel. When engaged, the autopilot continuously computes and sets the course and speed from the ship's current position, obtained from an inertial navigation system (INS) that's updated automatically by the global positioning system (GPS), to the destination via the most direct ("great circle") route. The autopilot also has settings for details like the maximum rudder that it's allowed to apply to maintain the desired course. If there are islands or other obstacles along the route, the officers also can specify intermediate waypoints to take the ship around those obstacles.

Of course, the deck officers on watch can take manual control at any time and typically do so to avoid other vessels that may cross the ship's intended path. When they restart the autopilot, it automatically adjusts course and speed to accommodate whatever deviation the avoidance of other shipping, etc., may have required.

Norm.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 10:25 PM
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Fern,

Does anyone else find it "interesting" that the news reports about this "incident" are sparse? Usually, when there's any problem on a ship, it's "Big News". The only place I've read about it is here and on the "other big cruise site", and on the FL channel 6.

Apparently, there's now so much more "Big News" about the Middle East, that the cruise ship news isn't that important!

I just find it interesting that the major news stations haven't reported on this "incident" at all!

I guess it has to be a slow news day to hear about any cruise ship's problems , which to me means that it's not "Big News" and won't scare people off!


It has been all over the news around here, and also on the Internet.

Norm.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 10:21 AM
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I don't know if it would do any good to include more information in the Muster Drill....as noted on other threads...most passengers, staff and crew don't pay attention to the limited information now!

Well, maybe because of this terrible accident...everyone will take the Drill and safety at sea a little more seriously. Very very sad...
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Old July 20th, 2006, 11:42 AM
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I noticed a lot of media coverage from the major networks, which you can usually find online. Interesting no one onboard managed to grab a video camera and tape it, as usually happens. But that actually says to me it was a scarier experience than it actually sounds.

The ship stayed at that angle for a good 30 seconds, usually when a ship rolls it starts to come back almost right away. That would lead to the fear factar as well, as such a sudden change in pitch that did not immediately resolve itself would really start to make me wonder what had happened.

And what a sense of relief when she finally righted herself.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 01:00 PM
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Paul,

I noticed a lot of media coverage from the major networks, which you can usually find online. Interesting no one onboard managed to grab a video camera and tape it, as usually happens. But that actually says to me it was a scarier experience than it actually sounds.

Yes. Either people were too focused on hanging on for dear life or the event happened too quickly to think of reaching for a video camera.

Then again, a sudden list probably would have sent video cameras hurling, too, if they were not stowed....

The ship stayed at that angle for a good 30 seconds, usually when a ship rolls it starts to come back almost right away.

I still have not seen a report that states what "that angle" was, but it's fairly obvious that it was much larger than normal for a cruise ship, where passenger comfort is a major concern.

In any case, the behavior of the ship that you describe actually is quite normal and entirely predicted by the laws of physics. The combination of the centripetal effect on the ship's center of mass, whch is well above the waterline, the maneuvering forces, which act below the ship's waterline, creates a torque about the ship's roll axis that causes the ship to heel to an angle where the shift in the center of bouyancy counteracts the torque. Thus, the amount of heel increases with greater rudder angle applied to execute a tighter turn and with higher speed, which causes the ship to turn more quickly for a given rudder angle. These heels usually remain pretty steady for the duration of the turn. As the ship comes out of the turn, the torque from the turn diminishes and the bouyant forces right the ship again. Cruise ships obviously use only small rudder angles to execute normal maneuvers, especially at high speed, to prevent this sort of upset.

That would lead to the fear factar as well, as such a sudden change in pitch that did not immediately resolve itself would really start to make me wonder what had happened.

Yes, the heel would be very disconcerting for the majority of passengers, who do not really have a sense of how a ship reacts during a sharp turn. Of course, unsecured objects hurling across the ship, cabin, etc., would be even more disconcerting....

And what a sense of relief when she finally righted herself.

Yes, but I'm sure that the majority of the passengers -- and probably many of the crew -- were pretty badly shaken and not quite sure what to think. One of my dad's Navy buddies said that he was a beliver in terra firma -- the more firma (firmer), the less terra (terror). No doubt many passengers left the ship feeling the same way.

In any case, my curiosity would like to know (1) the speed of the ship at the time of the incident, (2) the rudder angle applied during the turn, and (3) the amount of heel that occurred. If you see this information anywhere, please post it.

Norm.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 01:25 PM
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I would cruise with princess in a New York second! Keep your eyes and ears to the net for "get back to cruisin" deals. Wonderful line great people. Hope all involved will be able to heal and get this in the past.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 01:42 PM
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Fieldmouse, Why do you find it "very very sad?" Almost everyone survived relatively unscathed, only two fairly serious injuries and now they are saying those weren't as serious as at first thought. Very, very sad to me, is when lots of folks are killed. I'm reminded of when the horizontal stabilizer got stuck on on the Alaska airlines DC-9 a few years back and about 90 people were killed.

It is, however, puzzling and somewhat disconcerting that such a thing could occur on a modern cruise ship. Apparently the autopilot systems need some failsafe backups built into them to prevent a real tragady somewhere down the road. Maybe technology is still ahead of us. I hope this will be seen as awake up call by the industry.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev22:17
In any case, my curiosity would like to know (1) the speed of the ship at the time of the incident, (2) the rudder angle applied during the turn, and (3) the amount of heel that occurred. If you see this information anywhere, please post it.

Norm.
My curiousity is about this... and I am probably saying something stupid, but I am admittedly not a yachtsman....

the ship listed to port (which means it leaned toward the left when facing forward, correct? That would imply they were making a right right turn, right?, since a ship will tend to list away from the angle of the turn (correct me if I am wrong) - they are not like bicycles where they lean into the turn, the bouyancy tends to make the top of ship lean away from the angle of the turn.

Am I wrong or crazy? Or were they turning the wrong direction to get to NY City?

Actually, after much research I did that there uis something in ship handling called a "kick" which is: Momentary movement, at the start of a turn, of the ship’s stern toward the side opposite the direction of the turn .

So, was the listing (which they said was part of a turn), due to the kick? and if so, weren't they turning the wrong way?

I also agree with the post above - if a computer senses a ship at such a degree of list, something should kick in to turn that off immediately. In fact, such a thing should not ever be allowed to be programmed into an autopilot, and should only be able to be done manually (say, if an iceberg is spotted).
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Old July 20th, 2006, 01:59 PM
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Paul, you are assuming that the turn was an intentional one. It may have been completely unintentional and something caused by a computer glitch or some technological malfunction.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 02:18 PM
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Rich...

If a computer could cause a ship to turn the wrong direction out of the clear blue sky, and that steeply, THAT is a serious computer malfunction.

In any case, it will be very interesting to see what the cause was.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 05:48 PM
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Actually there was a short video I saw on the news, but it was after all of the excitement....pretty weird tho to see water in the hallways where it shouldn't be...
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Old July 20th, 2006, 07:33 PM
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It would not surprize me at all if some of our members blamed this incident on a careless smoker.
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