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  #31 (permalink)  
Old June 12th, 2007, 07:45 PM
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GBeret,

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Yes, I wwas aware of the Army's Green Dress uniform; however, I didn't bother to mention it as by the time one retires from the Army one is usually a senior officer, WO or NCO. By this time Officers will have a Blue Mess Dress and most Senior NCO's also or at least the Army Dress Blues.

I see the most junior enlisted people at some of the military formal functions I attend, using the Army dress Green uniform at thses functions; however, as I stated earlier most Senior Officers and NCOs have a Blue Mess Dress or the Blue Dress uniform.
That's true, but it's important to be complete here. One does occasionally see junior personnel on cruises, especially for their honeymoons or if travelling with their families. They need to know that they can wear the alternate uniform if they don't have the mess dress uniform or its equivalent.

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BTW: The Army is phasing out the Green Dress uniform and going to the Dress Blue uniform with some minor changes.
*shock*

It's about time! I have long thought that the Army's green dress uniform and the Air Force's blue dress uniform were about the ugliest dress uniforms of the armed forces. The Army's blue and white dress uniforms, OTOH, are pretty sharp! I also have it on very reliable authority that the Air Force Chief of Staff told the cadets at that service's academy that he is working on getting sharper uniforms for that service.

But are the Army's white uniforms also going away???

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I didn't go into the other services Mess Dress uniforms, as I'm not all that up on them. (Nor, did I have any reason to study them.) I'm aware or know that the Navy and Marines are different then the Army on such formal uniforms, especially in the enlisted ranks.
'Sokay. "Irish Shark" has done us the favor of digging up the table of uniform equivalents -- of all places, on the web site of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)! This reference should be handy for all concerned.

Norm.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old June 13th, 2007, 12:40 PM
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But are the Army's white uniforms also going away???

Yes, they are. Look at the picture that I posted.

I was in the AIR FORCE ROTC in college. So it was/is not just the Army.

'Sokay. "Irish Shark" has done us the favor of digging up the table of uniform equivalents -- of all places, on the web site of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)! This reference should be handy for all concerned.

You question the "source"? Give us a better one.

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old June 13th, 2007, 03:53 PM
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How did we get from what a 14 year old boy should wear to this?
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old June 13th, 2007, 04:22 PM
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Rev22:17:
Irish Shark:

The Army's white dress uniform is now or will be shortly gone (A Wear Date has been set.) This doesn't effect the Army's White Mess Dress uniform, it will still be an option in tropical climates or summer for formal wear.

BTW: I saw some pictures on the 'net of a new type AF dress uniform with a high collar sort of like the Marines. Frankly, it looked like it came from the Gen. Billy Mitchal era. Late 20's and or 30's.

Of course, you are right about the Green uniform mention, for those, especially on active duty that want to wear it on formal nights. I did see one AF type wear their regular blue AF uniform with white shirt and bow tie. He was a MSG though.

jim130:

Sorry this bothers you.

What can I say? I think this question about what the kid should wear was taken care of early on. Of course, perhaps the kid in question, is in the ROTC and Irish Sharks info might apply!

Or maybe, by the next cruise, he'll have joined the Army, or one of the other services and can wear a military formal.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old June 13th, 2007, 04:40 PM
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How did we get from what a 14 year old boy should wear to this?
That was the topic? Geez, I must have missed that!
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old June 13th, 2007, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev22:17
Irish Shark,

Quote:
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First, ROTC applies to all braches of the service, not just the Army.
Not quite. The Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) actually is part of the U. S. Army Reserve, and it trains commissioned officers only for the U. S. Army. The other services have parallel organizations. The Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps (NROTC) trains commissioned officers for the U. S. Navy and the U. S. Marine Corps. The Air Force Reserve Officer Training Corps (AFROTC) trains commissioned officers for the Air Force. By speaking only of ROTC, you (perhaps unintentionally) referred to the Army's organization.

Quote:
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Second, did I or anyone say anything about who pays for the uniform?
The point was simply that most ROTC cadets, AFROTC cadets, and NROTC midshipmen do not posess the mess dress or dinner dress jacket uniforms because they are not issued and they are more expensive than the budgets of most college students, even with the scholarships that these programs provide.

Norm.
The Mess Dress and former Blue dress uniforms have never been an issue uniform. Officers and enlisted people must purchase these uniforms themselves. The exceptions, are for honor guards, like the 'Old Guard' in Washington, DC. who are issued the Blue dress uniform. Or unit that is required by the Army to wear it.

The New Blue dress uniform as a regular uniform, will have belted pants and worn with a gray shirt. Officers and NCO's will have the Gold stripes on the pants. The Service hat (Bus Driver) will be worn with it. (No Berets or Bloused Jump Boots, etc.) Black low quarter shoes.

Enlisted ranks below Sgt. will wear same uniform without the stripe on pants and will wear the beret (Black, Maroon, Tan or Green.) No bloused boots.)

Most Airborne, Rangers and SF people are VERY unhappy about not being able to wear their EARNED beret and bloused Jump boots with the new uniform.

Of course, no hat is usually worn with Mess Dress and low quarter shoes are always worn with that dress.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old June 13th, 2007, 05:55 PM
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jim130,

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How did we get from what a 14 year old boy should wear to this?
The same way that most conversations flow from one aspect of a subject to another. More generally, the topic is proper attire for "formal" evenings.

Norm.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 06:04 PM
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Irish Shark,

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I was in the AIR FORCE ROTC in college. So it was/is not just the Army.
You obviously did not read my earlier post very carefully, so let me repeat what I said. The organization officially called the "Reserve Officer Training Corps" is a part of the U. S. Army. The "Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps" and the "Air Force Reserve Officer Training Corps" are completely separate organizations from the "Reserve Officer Training Corps." On the DOD organizational chart, their respective chains of command meet at the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Secretary of Defense.

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Originally Posted by You
You question the "source"? Give us a better one.
No, I'm not questioning the source at all. Commissioned officers of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration wear substantially the same uniforms and insignia as officers of the U. S. Navy of equal rank. They would have the same need for the Table of Uniform Equivalents as the regular military and naval services. I was simply surprised that I had not found on the web sites of any of the DOD services.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old June 14th, 2007, 01:00 PM
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old June 15th, 2007, 08:47 AM
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I don't know about you, but this conversation about formal wear is putting me to sleep, which is probably a good example of why it has become so passe to worry about cruise line dress codes in the last decade - it just isn't a topic everyone (including me) cares about.

I personally wear a tux out of respect for the cruise line, but I still believe it is a personal choice and I am NOT offended by someone who isn't dressed to the nines on formal night as long as they look decent.

I say let the little tykes wear slacks and a shirt, and they are fine. I don't even want to think about making a 10-yr old boy get fitted for a tuxedo. This is a tropical vacation, not the the funeral of a head of state.

It costs money some people don't have, its NO fun for the kid, it puts undue pressure on the parents to prepare for the vacation, and I believe the vast majority of people will still think the little kids look handsome as long as they are showered and their hair is combed.

BY THE WAY I just wanted to add that I just got Bob Dickinson's (president of Carnival) new book, and he talks about exactly how much conversations like this put off people who have never been on a cruise. The perception that cruising is for hoity toity snobbish people is frankly very intimidating, mostly to men (women seem to be naturally more secure about formal situations).

This type of question is often asked by people who have never been on a cruise, and frankly, I think if Bob read the Rev's reply he would want to stangle him. Rev, you paint such a regimented picture of what you expect people who go on a cruise to act like that it even scares me, and I have been on 100s of them.

Isn't it possible that cruising has changed a little over the years, and "formal" doesn't really mean what it used to. And furthermore, is it really up to the cruise lines to tell the guests everything and are we mandated to do everything the cruise line asks us? Is this the navy, or a vacation we paid for? i think even the cruise lines would say "put the tykes in nice but comfy clothes - no suits or especially tuxes - required."
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Old June 15th, 2007, 05:33 PM
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Paul,

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Originally Posted by You
BY THE WAY I just wanted to add that I just got Bob Dickinson's (president of Carnival) new book, and he talks about exactly how much conversations like this put off people who have never been on a cruise. The perception that cruising is for hoity toity snobbish people is frankly very intimidating, mostly to men (women seem to be naturally more secure about formal situations).

This type of question is often asked by people who have never been on a cruise, and frankly, I think if Bob read the Rev's reply he would want to stangle him. Rev, you paint such a regimented picture of what you expect people who go on a cruise to act like that it even scares me, and I have been on 100s of them.

Isn't it possible that cruising has changed a little over the years, and "formal" doesn't really mean what it used to. And furthermore, is it really up to the cruise lines to tell the guests everything and are we mandated to do everything the cruise line asks us? Is this the navy, or a vacation we paid for? i think even the cruise lines would say "put the tykes in nice but comfy clothes - no suits or especially tuxes - required."
Yes, cruising has changed -- but the norms of social etiquette have not. A decade ago, for example, a typical seven night Princess cruise had one or two "semiformal" evenings (coat and tie for gents) in addition to the "formal" evenings. I have no doubt that both the changes in dress code on many lines, including Princess, and the introduction of "all casual" lines like Oceania Cruises and Disney Cruises, have been in response to passenger demand -- and I fully welcome those changes in the industry. Indeed, I would like to see even greater variety in the offerings!

That said, not every cruise line has seen fit to go that route and the majority of cruise lines have not gone "all the way" to an "all casual" cruise product. The norms of social etiquette still dictate that one should wear the attire prescribed by the host(ess) for a social function. On a cruise ship, the host(ess) is the master of the vessel. I fully respect the wishes of those who prefer not to dress for the "formal" evenings to book a cruise that does not have "formal" evenings, and fully support their efforts to do so.

Conversely, I don't think it unreasonable to expect those who want an "all casual" cruise to respect the fact that some cruise lines still choose to serve those who don't want that sort of experience -- either by NOT booking on those lines or by conforming with the prescribed standards of dress if they book on those lines anyway.

BTW, some travel agents who downplay the dress codes during their interaction with prospective passengers seem to be a major contributor to the lack of compliance on some ships. When passengers come to book, a travel agent should discuss the standards of dress prescribed by each line under consideration as part of the process of selecting a cruise line as a matter of normal routine.

Norm.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old June 15th, 2007, 05:57 PM
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Paul Motter:

Thanks for expressing your point of view and your opinion, on formal wear.

It would seem that this type of thread on formal wear, or variations of formal wear discussions, comes up frequently.

There are many point of view(s) and/or opinions on the subject. I have never, on any of the Cruise line message boards, seen such threads settle the question. It always seem to be divided some for, some against and some, who have no opinion and/or care about the issue.

I really doubt that this question will ever be settled, by ranting and raving at each other on a cruise message board. Of course, for some people venting on such subjects seems to be 'fun' for them.

People have their own convictions and opinions on this subject and nothing you, or I, or anyone else is going to change their minds. They will dress the way they want to dress and/or what ever the Cruise line will allow them to dress in.


I see there was some mention in another thread of people being seen in the dinning room at breakfast, in their Princess bath-robes.

There are many people that do support the Cruise lines, suggested dress code and wear formal wear (Tux, etc.) on formal nights or at least a dark suit and tie.

I happen to among those, that enjoy dressing up, on formal nights in either my Tux, or mess Dress. So, I support the Cruise lines, suggestions/guide lines on Formal nights and will continue to 'dress-up,' until such time as the Cruise line changes those guidelines.

The fact is, that for people who don't want to 'dress-up' there are many ways not to do so.

1.) Stay home or fly to your tropical destination, spend your days on the beach, etc.

2.) Have room service, in your cabin, or eat in the Horizion Court on Formal Nights. (Stay out of the Formal areas.)

3.) Avoid Cruise lines, that have formal nights or any dress code(s).

4.) Wear your formal attire to dinner and change to your swimwear, jeans or whatever after dinner.

BTW: A lot of cruises that I have taken lately, are not to tropical climates. I like to SCUBA Dive and take separate SCUBA trips, were formal wear is a t-shirt and shorts, when your not diving. I was never much for siiting on the beach or deck collecting cancer rays.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old June 15th, 2007, 10:49 PM
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Let me add that when dress codes are not enforced we get at breakfest in the dinning room those who come attired in cut off tee shirts and bathing suits which believe me makes for a disgusting situation. My point is that there has to to be a line drawn or lets make the entire ship so casual that we can dress in any attire and feel comfortable.In the business world most companies have determined what is considered business casual and the cruise lines have made an effort in following this proceedure.Those who do not like this structure should go to all inclusives wher there is no dress code and you can where anything you want.
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