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  #31 (permalink)  
Old November 9th, 2003, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

When you understand that my friend was beaten...there are no further facts that can possibly make that okay.
Nanette


I agree with you wholeheartedly, and feel terribly sorry for the victims of this attack. And I do hope they recover completely, and I do hope they find some justice!!!

It shouldn't happen to ANYONE on a cruise ship... and it really shouldn't happen anywhere!!

No question in my mind that RCI didn't handle the situation well. Particularily not on following up with the injured people on their condition. And also with the "dance around" they seemed to receive about what the cruise line legally can or cannot do.

As I questioned in my previous post, my only problem would be... how does the cruise line determine immediately what justice is in a particular situation. Not just in this case, but in general.

If Party A reports an unprovoked vicious attack, and Party B claims Party A struck first. Should everyone concerned by put under arrest until the details can be sorted out, and the truth be found?

Unfortunately it's the same sort of problem we have "finding justice" on land. It often takes time, something there isn't much of on a 3 day cruise.

This certainly doesn't mean I don't feel for the victims, and would very much like to see their attackers punished to the full extent possible!!!!!!!!

It also appears the cruise lines need to be more prepared to handle violent situations on their ships. A VERY sad fact, since we all assume everyone on a cruise should be happy, friendly and accepting.



Post Edited (11-09-03 18:35)
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old November 9th, 2003, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I think you are rather foolish in your attitude. Perhaps when the shoe is on the other foot you may change your mind. However, I really would doubt that with your attitude.

A crime happened and was not handled properly. Pure and simple. And because of people like you with the attitude you have, these kinds of crimes will continue to happen.

What makes this any different from the event in New York were the female jogger was murdered because no one wanted to get involved???????????

Wake up and smell the coffee - everyone is in as much danger and the poor individuals who were attacked here. Who they were doesn't play into the fact that RCL slipped on a banana peel.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old November 9th, 2003, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Kuki....while I understand your point.....let's move on. How does your scenario relate to THIS incident? There was a lounge-full of people who witnessed the attack. In your scenario, there's an implication that perhaps the individual who was attacked, somehow provoked it, or "struck first." Again, your scenario has nothing to do with the facts in THIS attack, albeit I understand the dilemma you propose.

Plain and simple fact is that there were four individuals, who were not only capable of perpetrating such a violent act........BUT DID......AND..... had unrestricted access to the ship and it facilities. BIZARRE!

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that RCI didn't view this as a gay-bashing or hate crime. Are they so uncaring about the safety and care of their passengers that they would put them at risk for the remainder of this cruise?
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old November 9th, 2003, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I read the posts here and I am amazed that so many people are ready to boycott the cruise line and have the alledged attackers "walk the plank" without any evidence of what happened other than internet posts. Do I think the posts are an accurate depiction of what happened? Yes, from the posters point of view I am sure he/she thinks it is accurate. The other party (s) would probably also have their version of events if they posted here. Maybe some WANT to believe it was an unprovoked hate crime. I would like to have ALL the facts before I make up my mind and condemn RCCL.. I will never be satisfied that I have all the facts when all I hear is one side of the story. Sorry. If that makes me a bad person then so be it. I seriously doubt that we will ever hear the complete story and whats scary about that is it's fairly apparent some here only need half the story to make up their mind. The main thing I took issue with were some statements made by a poster about RCCL policy. That is ..........".If you are attacked or raped or molested on a Royal Caribbean vessel it is best to ask to be locked up yourself, because Royal Caribbean will not detain the assailants while you are on the cruise......". I am still waiting for that poster to let us know who at RCCL said that is their policy. I would hope that if these charges are true, then there will be a civil case against RCCL and a criminal case against the party responsible for the assault. Thank goodness that if it gets that far, the cases will be decided upon the facts and not the emotion shown here. One thing for sure, the case will not be decided here .

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  #35 (permalink)  
Old November 9th, 2003, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Just wondering...Rick, you didn't happen to be on the particular cruise in question, did you? Or, you didn't happen to have "friends" on board, did you??? Hmmmm. Just wondering.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old November 9th, 2003, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

In your scenario, there's an implication that perhaps the individual who was attacked, somehow provoked it, or "struck first."

Ty... Sorry I don't know what you're reading (or reading into). I NEVER said or implied that the people who were attacked provoked the attack. And I stated quite clearly that I hope the people who were attacked find justice!

I did say, that it's possible that the attackers MAY have claimed this once they were confronted by ship's security. If that's the case, it becomes a chore for security to verify the facts!

Unless a ship's officer or member of security witnessed the attack themselves, they could surely have problems confining passengers without investigating.

It no doubt was an emotional and traumatic experience for the people who were attacked. I have sympathy for them, as well as empathy. Fact of the matter is years ago I too was the victim of hate crime, so as well as anyone can, I know a bit about what they went through. The police had to investigate. They couldn't simply arrest those who attacked me on my word.

That's why I say, this isn't just an issue about "gay bashing". It's an issue for all of us, about justice and doing the right thing. Hopefully one we, and the cruise lines can learn some lessons from.

And, I hope those who were attacked pursue all means possible to have their attackers brought to justice.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 05:36 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

"The main thing I took issue with were some statements made by a poster about RCCL policy. That is ..........".If you are attacked or raped or molested on a Royal Caribbean vessel it is best to ask to be locked up yourself, because Royal Caribbean will not detain the assailants while you are on the cruise......". I am still waiting for that poster to let us know who at RCCL said that is their policy."

The statement below is part of a transcript of the victims phone call with managers of guest claims and customer relations at Royal Caribbean .

"They advised that they are not a legal authority and cannot technically "detain" them in a stateroom, etc. for even further legal reasons, etc. "

Whether or not you believe that this account is what actually happened....again....what's at question here is RCI's stance that they have no authority to detain individuals in their stateroom, or other facility aboard ship, regardless of the reason.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 06:07 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Rick, you are right. This case will not be decided here. If it was, based on your statements the people who were stomped on, attacked, and assaulted would be the guilty ones. After all, there are two sides of the story right RIck? The four assailants had every right to stomp on a persons head, to inflict bodily harm, to scream obsenities, to call people names. Isnt this true Rick, based on your comments? After all we didn't hear from the attackers, two sides of the story correct? I for one believe the eyewitness accountings of this horific crime. I also believe that this was not a provoked attack, but a vicious hate crime.

Keep on believing that RCL will take any necessary actions to ensure your safety while at sea. Keep thinking that if you are a victim of a violent assault on a RCL ship that the senior staff and management will come to you, explain the procedure, ensure your safety. Keep thinking that you would get a visit from the Captain, offering sympathy. Keep thinking that the medical bills you incurred while staying in the infirmary overnight will be taken care care. Keep on thinking all of the above Rick. I too prefer to think - think of the complete disregard of the victims. I keep thinking that RCL turned the other cheek. I keep thinking that RCL did not handle this whole situation correctly. I keep thinking why hasn't RCL answered ANY of the emails and snail mails that were sent.
Thats why I, along with hundreds of other posters are thinking the same. RCL dropped the ball on this one - big time.

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Old November 10th, 2003, 07:08 AM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

It is totally unfair to attack Rick and Kuki.....just because they made a logical comment and a wise one too I might add! If they would have written"yeah hang those bastards" you all would have cheered..I find this very sad. Fact is like Rick and Kuki stated....This reminds me of of the olden days where they used to lynch people..that is what you are doing to Kuki and Rick and anyone else that has a good sense ......And on top of it they don't disagree they just say lets hear ALL the facts before acting upon in an emotional matter............

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

It appears to me that this thread has deteriorated into a "if you don't agree with my point of view I'll insult you" type of thing. Too bad - Guess it proves both sides of the story.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 12:25 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

nanette states....Just wondering...Rick, you didn't happen to be on the particular cruise in question, did you? Or, you didn't happen to have "friends" on board, did you??? Hmmmm. Just wondering.



Nanette I wish I had been on that cruise. If I had been on the scene, I would have helped end whatever happened. You can take that to the bank . It's just in my nature and instinct to help.

Bunny states..I think Rick has a probelm comprehending things

Yep without all the facts...I sure do have trouble with that.


Ty states...The statement below is part of a transcript of the victims phone call with managers of guest claims and customer relations at Royal Caribbean .
"They advised that they are not a legal authority and cannot technically "detain" them in a stateroom, etc. for even further legal reasons, etc. "

Transcript?? Could it be that RCCL's answer was for the specific question about THAT particular incident? Were they asked if "rapist" were allowed to roam the ship freely? Of course not!

Rat states "Sue, you were defending an individual whose opinion is suspect"

lol....suspect? I call for reason and I am suspect? Pray tell....what am I suspected of ? Getting the whole story? ok guilty. I keep reading that this must be a true accounting because there was an EYEWITNESS (friends of alledged person assaulted)....this may be news to some but an eyewitness can often be the worst witness. I watch Law and Order . Of course I don't know what really happened anymore than most of you. Just not ready to condemn anyone or boycott a cruise line based of one side of a story I read on the internet.

God help us if some of you ever sit on a jury. It is obvious some of you "just don't get it" and to me that's scary. For that reason, I am finished with this thread. The "mob" rules on this thread.



Post Edited (11-10-03 19:24)
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 12:40 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

mob rules?...seems like youd want to hang around. Not too fun when it isnt your mob ruling is it?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

This sounds like a hoax to me, did you actually see this happen or was it told to you by someone else or did you just read it someplace? I hope it is just a hoax and this never happened. Buck
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

HI GANG!!

WOW!!! My mind is reeling!!! How can this be happening on a ship??? Ships are usually so civilized. I see a number of problems here:

I was once-upon-a-time a night club owner and we had a "tough" crowd to handle. I can tell you all (with no ifs ands or buts) I would have ordered security to "bounce" (THE PERPETRATORS) those people (on their heads) and then I would have gotten the police involved while the perpetrators were being "forcefully" held for questioning. In the field of "club security" force rules and it has to come swiftly before anyone gets seriously hurt or killed.

I have been saying. that as the clientele for cruising expands, the need for security is becoming more demanding. (Honest to GOD...I have made the statement that we need tuxedoed bouncers and velvet ropes for crowd control. I am very disappointed by RCI's response and I think that they had better start to prepare themselves for all events.

I am also disappointed at this thread and the way that some of you have used name calling...I do believe that some of the people who want more discussion and more evidence are actually incredulous that something like this could happen on a cruise with RCI.

We forget that in the 1930s ships actually had jails onboard to handle a situation such as this.

PEOPLE; STOP SLAMMING AND START DISCUSSING. I don't know of one person on this board who is not horrified and stunned at these events. Trying to get calarity is not being against the people who already are appalled. Let's put our heads together and come up with solutions. I, for one, think that security on these "Megaships" has to be beefed up and a response policy must be in place. These perpetrators need to know that they can and will be prosecuted. This is not a "gay issue" per se...This is about violence and how it should be handled and prosecuted. RCI has the right to detain and forcefully eject anyone who causes such injury...they simply want to avoid lawsuits. I think they need to come up with much better and effective methods.

ROSS

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  #45 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I also witnessed an unfortunate incident in the casino on a Costa ship. At the blackjack table I was seated next to two very drunk red necks from Oklahoma, who were drinking long island iced tea, and they should have been cut off hours earlier, but ships rarely turn down a $10.00 plus drink. Whenever they were dealt a loser hand they said to the dealer "bendover, you just gave me another suck a-- hand." The dealer was very sweet and obviously gay, but I was appalled at this behavior. Two pit bosses over heard these rude comments but just stood there and laughed. The one boss did put a finger over his mouth and then continued to laugh. In my opinion these two creeps should have been escorted out of the casino, and this behavior should never be tolerated.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

What made them rednecks..being drunk or being from Oklahoma? In what way was the dealer "obviuosly gay"?

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old November 10th, 2003, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Knew you couldn't stay away
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Old November 10th, 2003, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I just spoke with a manager at R.C.C.L. about this issue. She was a bit cagey and tight-lipped about the incident although she did admit that most of these accounts were true. She advised people to register their complaints with corporate offices at this number: (305) 539-6000. I plan on doing so during business hours tomorrow and I hope others will as well.

I don't believe boycotting is an answer to this problem but pressure from past and present clients may lead to a stronger policy regarding alleged hate crimes of any sort.

Perhaps next time R.C.C.L. captains will react promptly and appropriately to such issues before things get out of hand.

At least we can hope so...

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Old November 10th, 2003, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Chuck, thank you for posting the number for RCL. I have written both email, and snail mail to Jack Williams and Richard Fain.

Thanks again - it really is appreciated

LovesCruisin
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Old November 10th, 2003, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

So Rick does that mean if you did not see it, it did not happen? That seems to be the prevailing attitude which I think is appalling. As we have stated before go to the source before you or anyone else makes nonsense comments about the veracity. Yes rumors do get out of hand and blown out of proportion, but this was an actual event, with actual witnesses who indeed did try and break up the melee. The sad thing is not that it happened on RCI, but that it happened anywhere. Maybe all the ships should review their drinking policies, but I wonder if that would even help. There are to many people out there who are looking to start a fight for just about any reason, drunk or not.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old November 11th, 2003, 08:32 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Boy - I can't believe what I am reading here - Kuki & crew should be ashamed of themselves. Your true colors & pandering to the cruise lines is blatantly obvious at this point.

A hate crime occurred against human beings onboard - the authorities onboard did not react appropriately, the FBI was called in - & yet Kuki & crew take this "but the cruise line always does the right thing". Well if you saw your attacker roaming free after you had your attack Kuki - would you just say - oh its being taken care of? I think not. If legitimacy of the charges was the question - then to be fair - sequester all parties in their cabins with security - certainly safe for the 1 day before arriving in LA..

People like you don't realize the impact of this - obviously the cruise should be a wonderful holiday experience - when all goes as it should - it really is the best. But the cruise lines have structured themselves to be liable free & all that goes wrong is the responsibility of the passenger. The cruise lines have created a tight legal cocoon to operate in.

As far as the actions of the attackers - don't blame it on booze or anything else - animal are animals all their lives. Also What goes in sober comes out drunk!

People such as Kuki & crew just perpetuate thses behaviors & allow the cruise lines to maintain their cocoons.

Boycott RCL/ Celebrity - you bet I am. Its called ZERO TOLERANCE.. Hit em where it hurts$$$$$

Also - I know one of the victims well he is a wonderful, kind, intelligent, honest person - that thousands of people have beein in contact with through the cruise industry. Anyone that knows him personally or through his work would consider him one the nicest persons one could meet..

Shame on you - instead of making this a lesson in what we need to change & make better for all concerned - you managed to show your ignorant & ugly side.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old November 11th, 2003, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Ya know, I think some participants in this thread could really make good use of reading comprehension lessons!!!

Fortunately, the victim in this case, isn't one of them. I received an e mail from him thanking me for my support. Which by the way I DO!! He understands I'm both supportive and sympathetic, and I encouraged him to be vigorous and diligent in pursuing these creeps through every means possible to make sure they are punished.

Seems some of the others here though would prefer to see the legal system changed, and just run with guilty until proven innocent. Emotionally, when we see an injustice done, it's somewhat natural. But in the guilty until proven innocent scenario, you had better hope that you are NEVER falsely accused of a crime

In some societies even today someone can accuse you of stealing a loaf of bread, and on their word alone, they can chop off the accused's hands. That seems to be the sort of justice some of you support. And it only feels right and good until it's your hands.



Post Edited (11-11-03 11:24)
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old November 11th, 2003, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

We must remember that detaining someone after an incident does not imply guilt. It simply keeps things in hand until justice can be served.

When there are a number of witnesses, (not just he said she said) It is proper and legal to detain the alleged attacker.

A sound policy should be in existance to prevent the repeating of this problem, be the victim gay, straight, or bi-sexual.

In many legal jurisdictions, violent acts legally require the detention of at least one party. The assigned officer has no choice.

This keeps people safe from further harm. It only makes sense. The cruise itself would then be a mute point. Safety for all passengers would be the issue at hand. Violent people in one situation will often be violent in another. That is the reason for such actions.

Post Edited (11-11-03 12:21)
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Old November 11th, 2003, 11:01 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Thomas, Donna, Sue, Rick, Hacker and Chuck Palm ....

let me just say that I hope such an attack does not hit close to home for you, like on one of your children or relatives for you to gain compasion. If it ever does happen to one of your family members please make sure you get the attackers side of the story before you pass judgement or decide who you are going to believe!
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Old November 11th, 2003, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I AGREE with the above, and RCI didn't handle this situation well. However, there's still the question of who to detain... if both "sides" involved are telling the "authorities" (cruise line security) different stories.

I've been in the bar business for almost 30 years, so we've seen our share of altercations. If someone has been injured and I, or one of my staf,f witness the incident, and it's clearly obvious who the instigator is, we'll detain them for the police.

If we don't witness it, we'll detain all parties involved, and let the police investigate, and determine responsibility.

The situation in this case is much more complicated because they would have to confine people to their cabins until they reached port. That's probably what they should have done! However, if that was the policy, they'd have to investigate the incident thouroughly and decide who to confine, or confine the victims as well.

Because it is complicated, I don't totally condem the cruise line. I am much more concerned by the run around the staff onboard and the cruise line gave/ and seem to be giving the victims.... with stories about what they can and can not do.

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Old November 11th, 2003, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Cruise-Girl

I NEVER asked for the attacker's point of view. Re-read my posts. I, being a gay man that has experienced maliscious harrasement in his life, am far more in tune with these victims than most people posting here. Take a breath and read what people are saying...

I think your intense caring and emotion is getting in the way of you hearing what people are really saying.

Post Edited (11-11-03 12:18)
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Old November 11th, 2003, 11:17 AM
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Chuck Palm, I stand corrected in your instance. I aologize to you but do not take back what I said to the rest of the deserving group mentioned.
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Old November 11th, 2003, 11:30 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Chuck, thank you for being the voice of reason by saying "I think your intense caring and emotion is getting in the way of you hearing what people are really saying".



Post Edited (11-11-03 11:38)
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Old November 11th, 2003, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Talk about someone needing reading comprehension lessons - no one said they wanted innocent people to be charged. What most intelligent people are saying is that the attackers & victims could of been sequestered(I doubt the victims would objected if it was handled CORRECTLY) in their cabins until they reached LA where the proper authorities could take over.

Instead authorities onboard didn't do anything to ensure that the parties did not encounter each other again. Prevention is a big part of this, In a bar on land parties in these instances can go home - on a ship its difficult to steer clear of each other - especially since the attack was provoked.

As far as the hands being chopped off for stealing a loaf of bread comment - society has evolved here in the US - thats part of the outrage in how RCCL handled this., Change occurs for the better in our legal system - but only when the citizens ensure it reflects their beliefs. all parties should be held accountable & ensure that in the future everyones safety is of the highest priority.

Part of the problem here is that there are certain people that voice their opinions based on the sole purpose of securing benefits from corporations that hand them out.
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Old November 11th, 2003, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

David and I just got off the phone with a contact at corporate headquarters. We have been directed to Michael Sheehan who is the person working on this attack. His number is (305) 539-6000 ex. 6572.

He is supposed to return our call tomorrow. I hope to get more accurate information on how this and future cases will be handled.

At this time it is unclear what their policy might be. It is also unclear if the captain has been repremanded in any fashion. I hope more people will call and question his actions in this regard.

Post Edited (11-11-03 12:50)
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