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  #1 (permalink)  
Old November 7th, 2003, 01:58 PM
Kroooz-Cams
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Default A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

A violent hate crime occurred on the Monarch of the Seas last weekend. A gay man and a gay woman were brutally attacked by 4 passengers chanting f*ggot. This was an unprovoked attack and although both will survive, do you consider this acceptable cruise behavior? Royal Caribbean has stated that they cannot detain passengers onboard for any reason (even Norwalk Virus) that it is not in their power or jurisdiction. The 4 assailants were allowed to roam the ship at will the sea day following the incident. Imagine what you would feel if you ran into your attackers the day after an attack.

That night the victim went to the infirmary and was kept there all night for observation (possible concussions) and then was told he must pay the bill. It was only after heated discussions with the Hotel Mangager that they agreed to waived the charges. Royal Caribbean still maintains that it is the victims responsibility to pay for those medical charges.

I urge anyone who loves Royal Caribbean to write the cruise line and express their dismay at how they handled this situation. There is a very lengthy thread on the Cruise Critic Royal Caribean Message Boards title Live from Monarch of the Seas. Please don't be lulled into feeling you are safe and secure on an RCI ship.

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Old November 7th, 2003, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

C'mon Jeff. I read the thread on the G/L board and was saddened to hear this happened onboard any ship or line. But I have to say also we are only hearing one side of the story and we all know there are two.


"Please don't be lulled into feeling you are safe and secure on an RCI ship." is an unfair attack on RCI simply because it indicates that RCI somehow was responsible for the attack, which they were not. Better said maybe, would be "RCI didn't handle the situation afterwards to our satisfaction."

"I urge anyone who loves Royal Caribbean to write the cruise line and express their dismay at how they handled this situation." is also not fair. As it implies we are blindly going to believe completely something we read on a message board on the internet. Sorry, I'm not that believing. It's not at all that I think you or anyone else is deliberately lying about the events, it's just that I'm not going to be a party to the campaign against RCI unless I am completely aware of all the circumstances.

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Thomas
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Old November 7th, 2003, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Hello Thomas
You are correct if you only read the Gay and Lesbian thread on this site. I can only hope that the phone call with RCI that Matt and the victim had was relayed correctly and I have no reason to believe it wasn't.

I have never seen a cruise line respond directly to these message boards. The responses I've seen have been as relayed by others participating. In that phone call Royal Caribbean stated that they have no jurisdiction to detain passengers. That is why I say you shouldn't feel safe onboard. Its not that you will be attacked, rather if you are attacked you will not have the support of the cruiseline behind you.

I find this appalling. I have never been attacked in any way shape or form onboard any ship I have ever sailed. But when I am aware of an attack and how it was handled I want to share it with others so that they may be informed. I was unaware of this policy until now.

jeff
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Old November 7th, 2003, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Im 19 and have been on 4 RCCL cruises. A few yrs. ago me and my friends climbed on something we shouldnt of and were harrassed by security and threatened to get kicked off etc. Now you can commit hate crimes and stroll the deck the next day? Help here, please...
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Old November 7th, 2003, 05:48 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I am amazed this did not make mainstream news (???) Hate crime on a cruise ship did'nt make news??

Erik...you ask for help...<G> did you do something wrong to bring security down on you? You said you did so what's your problem? One true sign of maturity is taking responsibility for your actions instead of trying to minimize something you did because of an unrelated 'possible" problem IMO.

Kroooz-Cams states.....Royal Caribbean has stated that they cannot detain passengers onboard for any reason (even Norwalk Virus) that it is not in their power or jurisdiction...........What? I don't believe that for a second. So what you are saying is I can commit a violent crime or endanger the ship and the Captain and security can not detain me or restrain me? Do you honestly beleive that? Aboard that ship the Captain is all powerful and of course has the power and responsibility to take action to keep HIS ship and passengers safe. More to this story than a couple of posts are telling. Also, 2 cruises ago aboard the Mercury (i Think), we met a couple from England on a 2 week cruise. The first week, the husband was diagnosed with possible Norwalk virus...he was restricted to their cabin for a few days ....was told if he left his cabin before cleared, they would be put off ship at the next port and be responsible for getting home.



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Old November 7th, 2003, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I truely believe there is a lot to this story that we are not hearing. I also agree, you can't believe this as fact just because its on some message boards. I too have heard nothing from the media on this.......so, I'm sure there is a lot more to the story..

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Old November 7th, 2003, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Jeff,

I am a gay man. My partner David and I are booked on the Monarch 12-22-03. This news dismays me. Thank you for posting this thread. I will contact R.C.C.L. and express my thoughts. These people could legally have been put under "house arrest" and turned over to legal authorities at point of debarkation. It has happened frequently for lesser offenses like posession of drugs.

Assault, battery, and maliscious harassment are felonies under many jurisdictions. This should not be tolerated. Do you know who would be a proper contact person at R.C.C.L.?
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Old November 7th, 2003, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Chuck.....this suggestion may be far fetched.....but maybe you should try to verify exactly what if anything happened before blindly assuming what you read here is accurate. Do you honestly buy into Jeff's statement that the Captain has no authority to protect his pax's and ship? Come on people...think .
On 2 boards here I have asked Jeff to explain who told him at RCCL that the Cruiseline/Captain can not protect it's ship and pax's from even "rapists" according to Jeff on a thread he posted on the G and L board. According to Jeff, you can rape on a RCCL ship and the RCCL "policy" states that the Captain has no authority to detain you in any way! I am amazed that a moderator here did'nt delete his post. IMO Jeff has an agenda against RCCL...simple as that and we probably won't hear from Jeff again on this subject <G>.



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Old November 8th, 2003, 01:22 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Please people, verify your facts BEFORE acting. If you want to believe everything you read on a message board, then fine. But once you take action against somebody or some company without verifying the facts to your own satisfaction you are acting recklessly.

If you read the entire thread on the G/L board you will see that some of the respondents categorically claimed the attackers to be "trailer trash." I suppose it's acceptable on the G/L board to brand these people, however, apparently calling the gay couple f*ggots was provoking a confrontation. To my knowledge anybody who declared these people to be "trailer trash" never met them.

And I would like to know how it is that people who live in a trailer are trash? My mother-in-law was the finest woman God ever created and she lived in a trailer. I still miss her dearly.

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Thomas
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Old November 8th, 2003, 10:28 AM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

This is an excerpt from the victim regarding a phone call with the managers of guest claims and customer relations at Royal Caribbean.

"Some of this is understandable but frustrating from a victim's point of view. They advised that they are not a legal authority and cannot technically "detain" them in a stateroom, etc. for even further legal reasons, etc. They did, however, on the second concern, admit that there was a breakdown in communication between security, guest relations, and me and my group members."

The second comment about the communication breakdown was that behind the scenes they were monitoring the assailants but did not let us know.

From many of your comments the only way you will be satisfied that any of this is true is by talking directly to Royal Caribbean and I urge you to do so. You were not there, I was. I would hate to have you be attacked to see these policies in action.

jeff
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Old November 8th, 2003, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Folks, Jeff was there on the ship. I spoke to the one who was the eyewitness to this horific crime. The captain of the ship did NOTHING - didnt visit the victims, there was a breakdown between corporate in Miami and the ship. These attackers were not confined to their cabin on the last sea day. The victim and the eyewitnesses did see them out and about on the ship. RCL confines those who break property and wreck havoc on ships, yet those who commit a violent crime against another are allowed free reign?? please...............

And Rick, no this did not make the news. The victims and eyewitness' were waiting to discuss the situation with the FBI and the US attorney's office, and most importantly discuss the matter with RCL corporate in Miami. Everyone was waiting to see what would be done. Rest assured that various organizations have been contacted. It wouldn't surprise me that it will make national news sooner or later.

And yes - I called them trailer trash - any 4 people who attack someone because they are gay are just that in my opinion. Sorry if I offended anyone... but its my opinion. These folks were 4 low life scum who deserve anything and everything the courts will throw their way. Both victims are pressing charges. If these folks attacked straight people I will stand by my words as well - they are low life scum.

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Old November 8th, 2003, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Give me a break...enough of this already............this is a cruise site and not a gay site if I am not mistaken............itis okay for you to call the "bad people" trailer trash but if I call gay people trailer trash I be taken to court..hey you go figure............This is not something to be discussed here ....

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Old November 8th, 2003, 01:44 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I may be naive, but in this case, I tend to believe the story was probably close enough, within reasonal limits to have some validity.

As much as I wonder about how RCI onboard staff handled the situation afterwards, I'd also have to wonder why it took the security staff so long to get there that allowed people to be beaten so badly.

As a note of interest ... I once witnessed a somewhat comparable situation on a Carnival cruise. A couple I was playing Blackjack with in the casino, started to argue, and the situation was getting quite verbally abusive. They were told to leave the casino.

The next day, I saw the wife walking around, obviously badly beaten, so I followed up and asked about the situation. I was told that indeed the domestic dispute had turned violent, and security had been called. They said the man involved had been taken to a different cabin, guarded all night, and then put off the ship that morning.

I thought it sounded like they handled the situation correctly. However, it later became obvious that I had been fed a line, as later that night I saw the man, who had supposedly been put off the ship, in a couple of the lounges.

The cruise line wouldn't have likely told me anything except they probably didn't want to be seen stonewalling "the press". I did follow up afterwards with a letter expressing my dismay.

I think part of this has to do with the fact that these incidents are rare on cruise ships, so they don't have a solid plan in place on how to deal with them. For everyone's safety it would seem important that they start thinking about having firm action plans in place.

I guess one would also have to ask about the other passengers, witnessing the attack, and standing by without doing anything to help.

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Old November 8th, 2003, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

i am absolutely appalled at some of the attitude shown here, and even moreover by one of the message board hosts. people, the post was VERIFIED by an EYEWITNESS WHO TOLD HIS STORY. how can you be so DISbelieving and make up ridiculous excuses or whatever for the "other side" of the story. somebody better get their heads reglued or something. hate crimes don't deserve anything but compassion and some sort of suggestion as to how to handle the situation, NOT conjectures about whether this really happened or not. i think apologies are in order from the naysayers, and i also think rccl needs to hear from lots of folks to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen again--not necessarily the attacks themselves, but the lack of action by the Captain and security on the ship afterwards.
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Old November 8th, 2003, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Okay ...I read Kukis post and came to the following conclusion..if anyone and I mean anyone <age , sex, gender> is attacked for any reason the attacker<s> should be put under arrest and given over to the authority when docked. However I am not sure how the international water "law" will come unto play in this.

This is my final answer and I will say no more

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Old November 8th, 2003, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Hey Sue!!!!!!!!! thats my line! lol

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Old November 8th, 2003, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

What I'm finding hard to believe is that the captain didn't do anyting to hold or detain the offenders. I was always under the assumption, he was the so called "police" of his vessel and has that athority??

Anyone know exactly what the captain is allowed to do under these circumstances.

At this point, I think we'd all like to hear what Royal Caribbean has to say about this situation, thats what I was referring to when I said, we have not heard from the other side, there is always more than we don't know, guess time will tell.

I agree with Sue, when someone, anyone commits that kind of crime, they sould be locked up, thats what I'm having a hard time with here, how come they were allowed to walk through out the ship after this?

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Old November 8th, 2003, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I am the primary eye witness to this horrible crime. And yes, it was a crime.

And while there may be two sides to every story, this woman called me and everyone there F*ggots... and when she was told to stop, she pushed the victim to the ground and began stomping his head with her heels. Her boyfriend then jumped in and started pummeling him. Then they were removed by the ship's doormen, and got away from security (but not before the boyfriend shouted at the top of his lungs, "I'll kill all of you f*ggots... any of you want me, I'll be outside..." The DJ had stopped the music when the fight broke out, so this was very clearly heard by everyone on the night club.)

Then they attacked a woman from our group outside the club and kicked her in the head and tore her cornea. The the woman was heard to say "I just kicked one f*ggots a**, and I'm ready to kick some more.." Finally security caught up to them.

If you think I am making this up, this is my sworn statement to the FBI. If you think this is just about gays, shame on you. This was a vicious, violent attack fueled by nothing but hatred...

Both victims ended up in the infirmary, and my friend wa son an IV all night. He was bleeding after the attack, and had heel marks all over his head.. which swelled up quite a bit. By the way, attacking someone with a shod foot (meaning you were wearing a shoe) is considered felonious assault with a dangerous weapon. So, if you weren't there don't try to minimize this.

You want their side? I'm sure it would be colorful.

RCI says they are not allowed to forcibly detain any passenger, and so they were allowed to roam freely the next day. Had it been a port day, they would have been put off the ship. Unfortunately it was not. The ship's senior staff showed no concern, and made no attempts to contact the victims to even see how they were feeling. It was not until we started really making a stink with MIami, that two senior managers called us to express concern and to ask how they could do better in the future.

But that's just lip service, if they don't feel pressured to back that up.

I can not believe that in 2003, there are posts above this one that are concerned that speaking about this here is somehow turning this board into a gay board. As if this is somehow incovenient, or like people who post on the boards "my entree was cold and now my cruise is ruined".

Anyone can be the victim of violence. Wouldn't you like a reasonable assurance that you will be safe from your attackers after an attack?

All anyone is asking that RCI knows any passenger wants their Guest Vacation Policy enforced and that criminals need to be detained.

Matt

(PS: I am dealing with this on another major cruise board, and that's the board I am focusing on. This will be my only post here.)
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Old November 8th, 2003, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Okay..fine. A fight broke out in the ships night club. The authorities have taken over the case. Would I feel less safe on a RCL/Celebrity cruise because of a fight in a night club? Of course not! What you describe is far less serious than the outrageous scenarios put forth on these boards by Jeff who proclaimed that even "rapists" had nothing to fear on RCL.. I am not saying a crime did'nt take place but this is'nt the forum to determine that one way or the other. Let law enforcement and the courts deal with this problem if charges are deemed true and lets get back to what's really important.........planning our next cruise .



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Old November 8th, 2003, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I find it curious that the same people that a month ago argued a "gay and lesbian" board was unnecessary and that such issues should be addressed in the more general threads, are now saying gay and lesbian issues shouldn't be addressed on the R.C.C.L. thread. This sounds like a catch 22 for gay people to me.
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Old November 8th, 2003, 09:41 PM
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rick. are you from the medieval ages? enuf said. a CRIME was committed...and you are still asking for excuses for not having the cruise line intervene (particularly the Captain) . you must not be available for common sense. sorry, guy, u dunt make cents
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Old November 8th, 2003, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

mike & jon .from the middle ages? ..well I am old fashioned in that I don't rush to judgement just because someone says something happened. I guess I still believe in hearing ALL the facts before making a judgement. You say a "CRIME" was committed without having all the facts. You blindly accept a post as absolutely true. A post initiated by a friend of the people alledgely assaulted ...based on the "eye witness" account of a friend of the persons alledgely assaulted. Excuse me but if my friend was being assaulted right in front of me, I would help in anyway I could. But it appears useless to appeal to some of you to temper your judgement with common sense because you blindly believe everything you read or it fits an agenda you want to champion.. Common sense says that if we talk to the alledged assaulters, they would probably have a different story of what happened. Why don't we drop this useless discussion and let the court decide right and wrong if it was to go before a court. I don't know what happened but I do think it irresponsible for Jeff to make statements such as ......".If you are attacked or raped or molested on a Royal Caribbean vessel it is best to ask to be locked up yourself, because Royal Caribbean will not detain the assailants while you are on the cruise......". mike & jon,,,you don't find that statement by Jeff a little hard to believe? I simple asked him, who at RCCL said that is their policy. He is yet to answer. He is on a crusade to protect us from RCCL. I for one don't need his protection. In that I don't rush to judgement based soley on posts from friends of the alledged persons assaulted then I am proud to be old fashioned <G> Gezzz people let it go. This case will never be settled here nor should it be. Does that make "cents" to you? <G>

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Old November 9th, 2003, 03:45 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I just can't believe some of the responses that I'm reading. The point is that there were serious crimes committed. Royal Caribbean's decisions and policies apparently did not allow the attackers to be detained. This is not a gay issue. It's about passenger safety.

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Old November 9th, 2003, 09:22 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Hate crimes are just that. When black people are dragged behind pick-up trucks until they are dead and when young gay men are tortured and left to hang on a barbed wire fence just because of who they happen to be or what they are perceived to be, it is dead wrong.This event is repulsive and R.C.C.L. is probably in a good position for a lawsuit as well.

The doubting Thomases should realize that if the wrong drunken twenty year old perceived that they might be gay or lesbian, this crime could also have happened to them. No one is safe from hate crimes and the terror that they convey to possible victims.

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Old November 9th, 2003, 09:38 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Following is the individual's description (in part) of what transpired. While I won't take time to quote it here it it's entirity....as I believe that regardless of what it says, there will still be individuals that continue to deny it's varasity.

"Shortly after entering the Circuit Lounge at approximately 12:15am , I went to the dance floor with a fellow guest. We danced for about three songs and then decided to regress to the forward most section of the lounge where the main bar is located. Upon exiting the dance floor, another member of our group, advised us that there were people from the general passenger complement making verbally abusive remarks . We were hearing these verbally abusive remarks consistently by this group of people as we approached near the port side entrance of the Circuit Lounge. Upon arriving there I noticed a group member being accosted by this group and they were using the same abusive remarks. I stood back to observe briefly and one of two females shouted to me “and just what do you think you’re going to do” with the abusive remarks. Immediately I ran to the service bar on port side and shouted for a bar staff member to call security. They seemed busy but, apparently, one of the two gentlemen had called security.

Shortly after that time, I stood back just to make sure that no physical activity was taking place between the assaulting passengers and the member of our group. When I did not see that to be the case, I went back to discussing the whole issue with other group members in the area. We could not believe that these offensive comments were being said so freely among this small group of passengers throughout the lounge. Just a minute or two later, I joined the line for a drink in the Circuit Lounge and a member of our group, was standing nearby. I looked across the bar to see the same of two females glaring at me and she shouted, “what are you going to do … (abusive comment)”. Before I could barely even remark to myself, another female from her group ran to me with both hands in front of her to shove me to the ground.

After this impact I fell to the ground about five to ten feet where she hit me. At this time I felt her kick the side of my head and I immediately went into an extreme fetal position to try and protect my head. I heard one of the two male passengers yell, “what are you doing to my girl” in conjunction with the same verbal abuse. I could tell at that point that more had joined in the physical attack and I could feel multiple kicks and punches to my head, shoulders, back, and sides. I could really only hear the sound of the impact but did notice that there was screaming in the lounge from the event and that the disc jockey had ceased the music.

The attack lasted an undetermined amount of time while many apparently had attempted to stop the attackers. After the security staff had removed the attackers from me, I lay on the ground for a minute or two. Upon the security staff’s removing the attackers from me, one of two males shouted, “I’ll kill all of you (abusive comment).”

How RCI handled this situation AFTER the incident, is what's at question here. Pick it apart, I know you will.
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Old November 9th, 2003, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I agree with you 100% Ty. Thanks for taking the time to post this info. It is important this crime or these crimes are seen for what they are.

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Old November 9th, 2003, 11:03 AM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Rick, I am saying that I am mature enough to know that that was wrong. I said help please to show that RCCL doesn't have their priorities straight. Threaten to kick us off the ship for something thats smaller, by any means,than physically abusing someone. It just doesnt add up. Thanks
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Old November 9th, 2003, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Geez louise, I think some people are missing the point here. The bottom line is that cruise lines have been known in the past to be somewhat vague on how they handle incidents on board -- be it rape or assault.

This type incident could happen on *any* cruiseline. Factor in drinking, and it's most probable that it will occur again.

On a personal note, on the cruise from which we just returned (Carnival), I finally got Art to dance with me in the nightclub. Not that he doesn't enjoy dancing -- it's that he was concerned about what the straight people in the club would think/or do. Of course, there were some "looks," but I just chose to ignore them. If it had turned more violent and I could see the perpetrators wander freely the next day, I would be raising holy hell.

With the young staff that usually covers the nightclubs, it's no wonder that they were not as pro-active as they should be in stopping the event. Furthermore, allowing the alleged perpetrators to wander freely the last sea day is ridiculous.

It's my hope that the victims in the incident (and yes, anyone who has been kicked and stomped on *is* a victim) should go to an attorney and to the press. The unwanted publicity will surely create more of an incentive for cruiselines to adopt a no-tolerance policy to any hate crimes, or any crime at all. (As a side note, recall the missing person case from years back on the Rhapsody of the Seas that was the focus of a "20-20" or similar news show.)

Finally, for those who think this is a "gay issue" should step back and remember not too long ago when it was OK to show epithets at blacks when they dare go into predominately white establishment. The point is that *anyone* should feel safe on a cruise ship, as long as they are not harming anyone else.

All cruiselines should address this issue and create a policy that dictates a "no tolerance" policy toward any hate crimes that may occur on board.

Harry
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Old November 9th, 2003, 01:10 PM
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Default Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

Harry... I couldn't agree with you more. This is not a gay issue, it's an issue for all people!! And I think it's mostly an issue about how cruise lines need to handle violent situations of any kind!!!

I do somewhat understand some people questioning the events( though I believe in this case the facts are very close to what's been related). Taking every posting on Internet message boards as fact, without seeking some sort of verification, isn't wise.

I've tried to research a bit about the Captain and crews ability to react this type of situation, and I do believe the Captain has the ultimate power to do as he sees fit to protect his ship, crew and passengers.

RCI itself went through a period recently where alot of damage was being done by teens on some holiday cruises. They instituted a curfew on their ships for partiuclar age groups.
I have no idea if these curfews are still in place, but if they could restrict passengers under a certain age to their cabins, one would think they could restrict passengers displaying violence to other passengers as well.

However, there's a bit of a problem. Do they in turn then have to become the judges, and hold trials onboard to determine fault.?
In this case, emotion tells us to support the victims, but what if the perpetrators of the violence are saying they were defending themselves? Then witnesses need to be called, etc.
So, the remedy to these situations may not be so clear.

Alot like being on land. Unfortunately when a crime is committed, someone has to be convicted of it before it's a crime.

Now if cruise ships were pirate ships guilt would be established quickly, and someone would be made to walk the plank. I can certainly understand the victims wanting that kind of justice, but really would that be right?

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Old November 9th, 2003, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!

I know one of the victims personally. I am a "straight" "Mom" from So. Calif. (not that that should make one bit of difference). This victim is one of the nicest, kind hearted people you could meet. In posting about the incident, I really believe that it is simply an effort to make us all aware of what happened. We have two sons who cruise with us and I can not imagine what we would have done had this happened to one of them while on a cruise.

These boards are wonderful to keep we cruisers informed. I for one, will not go on one of these three day cruises unless I hear that crimes at sea are handled in a different manner than RCI handled this one.

When you understand that my friend was beaten...there are no further facts that can possibly make that okay.

Nanette
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