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  #31 (permalink)  
Old July 31st, 2004, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

Darn! I seemed to miss the "off color" remark that was posted earlier.

My humble opinion (well, I've never had a humble opinion in my life) is that men should adhere to the rule of proper dress in the dining room at dinner. If I'm in a tuxedo, why should I have to look at some guys hairy legs at dinner? OK, some folks don't like to dress up at dinner, but if that's the case, let them go to the casual dining venue to eat.

Come on, folks, are there really guys out there who can't even consider wearing a sport coat at dinner?

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old July 31st, 2004, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

Pootersdad, I think that the basic problem is that there are far too many people in this world who believe that the rules do not apply to them.

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old August 1st, 2004, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

Pootersdad....

There are those that have a problem with "dressing" for dinner. As a matter of fact that subject came up tonight with my in-laws. We are planning one of those little 3 day cruises from Los Angeles to Ensenada. My sister-in-law (who has been one cruise) said, "well, the formal nights on those cruises aren't as formal. A long sleeved shirt and dockers will do." I tried to explain to her in the nicest way that "formal is FORMAL". If they meant casual or smart casual, they wouldn't call it formal.. She then told me that her husband will not wear jacket to dinner. I told her that out of respect for the other diners, it would be nice if he wore the at least a jacket to dinner...and then he could change back into his shorts or whatever, right after dinner. She then got on the discussion of shorts in the dining room and she felt that they were ok if they were the "nice shorts". At least I could tell her that the "no shorts in the dining room at dinner" rule, WAS a rule...not just a suggestion. I think my argument went on deaf ears. Unfortunately, some people get it...and some people don't.

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old August 1st, 2004, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

Laurie: My understanding is that your sister-in-law is correct. The formal nights on shorter cruises are not as strictly formal as that on longer cruises. I'm not saying people can't dress up, and I'm not saying some people would prefer if they were as formal, but the overwhelming indication, from experiences related by people who have taken shorter cruises, is that there is indeed a difference.
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Old August 1st, 2004, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

Sorry Bicker....I still believe that formal means formal. 3 day cruise or 10 day cruise. The word doesn't mean the same. Why would the cruise lines even suggest formal if they mean casual?
Also, just because everyone else is doing it (not dressing formal) doesn't make it right. As my mother used to say, "if everyone jumped off a bridge does that make it right?"...

Just my opinion.

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old August 1st, 2004, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

That's okay, Laurie. You can believe whatever you wish, just like we all can. That's the beauty of the optional nature of the dress code on the mainstream cruise lines: Everyone decides for themselves, and everyone's correct!

To answer your question, I believe the most likely reason that cruise lines suggest what they suggest is because it attracts some portion of their customer-base. Many people book cruises based, at least in part, on the knowledge that there is a context for them to dress-up and enjoy that kind of evening with their companion and/or family. I've read some messages here that are close to poetry, extolling how much these folks love that kind of experience.

Also, your mother's logic cuts both ways. "Just because Laurie told you you had to dress up doesn't mean you have to." Indeed, applying your mother's advice to this situation risks appearing to hold some measure of disrespect for the significant number of reasonable, mature adults who not only disagree with you, but choose to dress differently from you.

My Mom's advice along these lines was tempered with a lot more respect: "Trust yourself when all men doubt you, but leave allowance for their doubting too." That grants each person the respect they deserve to make their own decisions, while allowing reasonable people to disagree, and still asking each person to consider every decision in light of what others believe.
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Old August 1st, 2004, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

I suppose you're right bicker, everyone has the right to make themselves look like a horses rear end. But I'll tell you what, you show up at the golf course I play without proper golf attire, and you'll never see the 1st tee.

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old August 1st, 2004, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

Sal7202...Great point.

Bicker....as I said...some people get it and some people don't. I'm not trying to change anyones mind about how they dress. I just feel the cruise lines wouldn't offer a suggested dress code if they didn't want to add a bit of "class" to the cruising experience. I don't REALLY care how people dress...its not going to ruin my cruise. If they want to look out of place, thats their business.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old August 1st, 2004, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

What advantage is there in assuming that folks who disagree with us are thereby unreasonable?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old August 1st, 2004, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

No.

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old August 1st, 2004, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

I guess Bicker is right. Each of us should be able to decide our own rules of behavior, regardless of what others think, as long as there are no specific laws in place to deal with them... and then, only if there's someone present to enforce those laws.

One shouldn't have to bother with compromising their own free will in ANY situation, if there's no specific directive from someone with authority to enforce it.

Gee.. wouldn't that be a pleasant world to live in?

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

Here Here Kuki.

What a wonderful world it would be if we needed to dictate all human behaviour with laws and regulations and there was no need for anyone to have any common sense or courtesy for others at all!

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

Of course, I never said, "only if there's someone present to enforce those laws." I have to wonder why you'd apply that distortion, Kuku.

Regardless, it is far better for folks to live in accordance with their own beliefs than to have those of others forced upon them. It is better to pray to one's own God, than being told what God to pray to. It is better to raise children to believe as we do, rather than having someone else's beliefs about Jews, Gays, and people of color forced on them. It is better to respect each other than assume that the only right answer is the one we have made for ourself.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

Hi All,

What I said earlier is correct that on RCL at least it is not a rule on how you dress in the dining room. Per their own web site they say they have guidelines. If you do not belive me, go to the RCL website, and check the FAQs under life onboard.

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  #45 (permalink)  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 09:54 AM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

And the reason they have "guidelines" is because they know that not everyone will have the common sense and respect for others to dress appropiately at all times. I don't subscribe to the notion that everyone should follow their own judgement and dress as they see fit since that would undoubtedly result in some folks dressing quite inappropiately at times. When someone I do business with ( and yes, a cruise IS a business transaction between the passenger and the cruiseline) informs me of their guidelines, I do not use semantics as an excuse to think that I can do whatever I want because they're only "guidelines". Guidelines are there for a reason and should be respected by all passengers; therefore there should be no shorts in the dining room for dinner. If you don't agree with the guidelines find another type of vacation or a cruiseline with no guidelines.

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  #46 (permalink)  
Old August 2nd, 2004, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

Hi Yuyi64,

I agree and dress appropriately for the dining room per the guidelines. I was just stressing that each cruise line refers to things differently either as guidelines or rules.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd, 2004, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

I know I'm gonna regret this but what "beliefs about Jews, Gays, and people of color" are being forced on you and how does that relate to dressing inappropriately in a formal dining room on a designated formal evening?

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  #48 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd, 2004, 12:29 AM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

Yuyi64....

Great post! I just wish I could get my opinion across as well as you.

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  #49 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd, 2004, 06:32 AM
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Default Re: Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

Jason: Disrespect generally doesn't start with genocide! A little bit of hubris is the stepping stone to greater measures of it. People being judgemental about dress codes, where their judgementalism is defensible by only their own personal preference, is no different except in degree than people being judgemental about religious beliefs.

Yuyi: The reason why they have suggested dress codes is so that those who wish to participate have some indication of what is expected. Also, I don't think it makes a compelling argument to base assertions on disrespecting people just because they have different beliefs, by alleging that because they have different beliefs they don't have common sense. Semantics is irrelevant. Answer this: What objectively justifies your assertion of moral or intellectual superiority?
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd, 2004, 06:34 AM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

dalech: I'm with you. I plan to dress in accordance with the guidelines, because I have decided to (see related message for a full description of my formal attire -- it was rather funny that people actually were so interested in what I was going to wear -- I never considered myself a fashion maven! <grin>)

However, that doesn't justify belief that people who disagree with me are "wrong".
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd, 2004, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

I don't see how asking people to dress up a couple of nights to create a certain atmosphere is arrogant or judgemental. Admittedly, some people have way too much vested in others dress preferences. However, isn't drawing a parallel to racial or religious persecution a tad extreme?

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Old August 4th, 2004, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

If you're asking whether the transgression is of the same size, the answer is surely no. However, it is the same transgression, just with a lower level of severity. If racial and religious persecution is paralleled with the crime of rape, then expecting other people to placate your specifications with regard to how they dress could be paralleled with the crime of slander. Still a transgression.
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Old August 4th, 2004, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dress shorts in dining room

You have some impressive argument and writing skills bicker. Are you an attorney or writer?

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Old August 4th, 2004, 01:11 PM
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I'm a retired international management consultant.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old August 4th, 2004, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: dress shorts in dining room

I enjoy having formal nite on the cruise. It's like goIing to a nice restaurant and have someone serve you. I always bring my jacket and coat with me when cruising. And I always enjoy seating with couples who have the same mindset. Don't forget its picture taking nite as well. Why not dress up and have a good time. You only live once.
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