CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums

CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/)
-   Royal Caribbean International (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/royal-caribbean-international/)
-   -   Florida woman goes overboard Voyager of the Seas (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/royal-caribbean-international/318193-florida-woman-goes-overboard-voyager-seas.html)

Dave the Wave August 1st, 2006 01:57 PM

Florida woman goes overboard Voyager of the Seas
 
How did we miss this one? :( This is all the new I have found. Apparently, they did find the body floating a few days later in the Med.

Any other links?

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2006/...e_ship/?latest

Dave the Wave August 1st, 2006 02:15 PM

Apparently there is now a conspiracy theory.... interesting.

http://www.internationalcruisevictims.org/

gambitscuba August 1st, 2006 04:00 PM

... The poor woman was probably the object of one of the 250 sexual assaults on cruise ships a year... and the assailant probably realized his error and shoved her over the boat knowing the odds of finding a body in the massive ocean is slim to none... I hope that is not the case...

Robbie H August 1st, 2006 04:07 PM

People just have trouble realizing that folks commit suicide in all kinds of places. I have seen the aftermath of jumpers, shootings, and cuttings. Most didn't even factor in alcohol, just raw emotions.

I do think all of these cases need to be investigated but "jumping" is a very common form of suicide and it doesn't surprise me at all that people jump from ships.

Rev22:17 August 1st, 2006 06:34 PM

Dave,

How did we miss this one? This is all the new I have found. Apparently, they did find the body floating a few days later in the Med.

Any other links?


I did see anohter article about this incident, but I'm not sure where. The artcile said that the woman was last seen in bed in a cabin that she was sharing with her parents at 12:30 AM, and that her sister reported her missing at 7:30 the next morning.

But how in the world do you fall off a cruise ship??? There are rails around all open decks and balconies that are high enough and sturdy enough to ensure that one cannot simply fall off.... upon which passengers never should climb....

Norm.

maryjorunyon August 1st, 2006 08:22 PM

answer
 
On the cruise-critic site there was a statement from her parents.

They said they didn't think there was any foul-play.

Suicide is a very horrifying thing that happens in all families.

Myself and my 6 month old survived when her father killed himself.

The family feels that it was not foul play and thank RCCL for there help.

Please don't let this get out of control. They have enough to be sorrowful for already.

MJ

gambitscuba August 1st, 2006 09:47 PM

Just because the family feels there was no foul play doesn't mean that there wasnt.... There are hundreds of sexually frustrated crew members on those ships... and if one of them thought they had a chance with a pretty American girl and she decided to fend him off... outside on a deck... then im sure he probably pushed her off... I don't think it would have been suicide... I just don't see that as a feasible thought... you also have to wonder how much life insurance her family had on her... and if the fathers business might have been doing poorly the past couple of years...

Rev22:17 August 1st, 2006 10:29 PM

gambitscuba,

There are hundreds of sexually frustrated crew members on those ships...

I have yet to see crew members on any cruise ship who appeared to be sexually frustrated. I have, however, seen quite a few who have had what appeared to be very serious dating relationships with other members of the crew.

Norm.

Dave the Wave August 1st, 2006 10:33 PM

Life insurance and the fathers business can have nothing to do with it. She either jumped or had some help.

gambitscuba August 1st, 2006 10:43 PM

there has to be a few sexually frustrated crew members if they keep having all those sexual assaults on the cruise ships...

and DTW that was just a theory... the whole post was a theory... just opening up those tangents...

I could also open the tangent that maybe an alien space craft abducted her... fed her strange alien type food which poisoned her and they freaked out and dumped her into the ocean... HOWEVER... i don't believe that was the case.... just another theory...

Ron August 2nd, 2006 12:22 AM

If the figures are correct, approx. 10 million people cruised last year alone. Out of that 10 million, there were a handful of problems that were actually documented .
Out of the documented problems, alcohol was the main culprit. People seem to want to blame the cruise line for whatever happens whether they are at fault or not. I have seen people chastise the cruise lines for people over-indulging in alcohol--- but how many posts do we see in a month's time wherein people are constantly asking for and getting advice on how to smuggle alcohol aboard ship? If the bars onboard don't serve someone, it becomes a huge problem. If they do, they are at fault if something happens. If someone smuggles a gallon of liqour aboard and drinks themselves silly, falls overboard , then it's the old " another person missing on a cruise ship " story that the media loves.

The only reason that this latest episode hasn't gotten the media's attention ( so far ) is that there is honest to goodness blood and guts violence going on in the mid-east which is just too doggone good for the media to pass up.

Regarding actual crime on a cruise ship, I would say that's probably the safest place a person could be. In a couple dozen cruises, I have never been assaulted ( sexually or otherwise ), never seen an assault nor seen verbal abuse heaped upon a passenger by any crew person. I have , on the other hand, seen and heard much verbal abuse heaped upon some of the crew by drunk, rude and pushy passengers.

In perspective, there was approx. 18 thousand people killed in the U.S. last year by drunk drivers. Where's the congressional committe that's outraged over this ? In Washington, D.C. our very own capitol, a few weeks ago the police chief declared a crime emergecy. That managed to get about a 30 second mention on the evening news with no groups demanding congressional action to stop the crime.

The list of people that is always shown as " cruise ship crime victims, etc " is a list of people that goes back for several years. It's not like they all disappeared in the last month or so.
I'm not in any way trying to belittle someones apparent death. It's indeed a tragic thing and I feel for the family. I just believe in fairplay all around.

Since this last incident, how many rapes, murders, assualts, drunk driving deaths, etc,. have occurred here on dry land ? I daresay several hundred nationwide. Why does one incident on a ship garner so much attention---
probably because it's so rare when compared to the millions that cruise safely each year.

Just a couple things that may be worth mentioning-- until fairly recently, ships didn't have balconies for the overly drunk to climb about on. Also in recent years, the building of more and bigger ships has basically exploded
meaning more and more people are cruising. As in anything, the more people means there is more opportunity for something to happen.
I am not at all surprised that people fall overboard. I am , however, surprised that it's adults that do it. I felt that when all the cruise ships started coming out with the balconies, there would be a problem with kids falling over from climbing on the rails. It appears that the kids may be smarter than the adults.

gambitscuba August 2nd, 2006 12:34 AM

i brilliantly applaud your post... but i raise you the concerns of a young woman...

my own...

as a young woman traveling on a cruise ship... i have found myself in the past 2 years to have more and more ships male crew knowing my name... which while it might not seem like a big deal... half of them i have never met... and the other half i find staring... (some even have the dreaded elevator eyes)... while i never let it bother me because it has never been that huge of a deal, because i place them away in the you can't afford me category and just laugh it off... one day however one of those crew members might become a bit too forward and cross the line... not saying they will but it is always in the back of my mind... the first thing i do when i get on the boat and get situated... i find the security office and the public phones on each deck and memorize securities number... because while it might NEVER happen to me... im am going to take all the precautions i can to not fall prey to a "sexually frustrated" crew member... because while it is only a handful that get reported... it is still a problem...

Fieldmouse August 2nd, 2006 01:24 AM

You do know that:

The crew does get time off the ship.

The crew does not sign a celibacy contract.

There are other crew women on the ship that are attractive and more available.

Not all foreign men find American women attractive or a great catch.

You do know that men can stare, smile and admire a woman but not necessarily want to have sex with her?

Because the family is reacting in a civil manner, not wanting to sue RCCI, saying they appreciate their care and help....
does that mean they have a hidden agenda?

gambitscuba, your other comments regarding life insurance and the family business are really cruel and uncalled for even in spectulation.

gambitscuba August 2nd, 2006 01:31 AM

IM sorry you feel in that manner... but what happens happens... the world isn't all rainbows and butterflies... i will however digress from this strand as i deem i am unwanted here... though i do feel that ya'll don't quite understand my point of view on my last post...

1 year ago.. on a cruise that i was on with my highschool band... one of the girls from my school was sexually assaulted by a crew member... she was underage... and the cruise line was less than polite to her and her sorrows, she still cannot get through the story, she was sent to therapy... and guess what.. it happens... im not coming out of left field with it...

Rev22:17 August 2nd, 2006 10:12 AM

gambitscuba,

there has to be a few sexually frustrated crew members if they keep having all those sexual assaults on the cruise ships...

There was a slew of over five hundred credible complaints of sexual assualts on passengers by members of ship's crews that prompted an FBI investigation a few years ago, but they were confined to ONE cruise line that had a legacy of promoting the "anything goes" atmosphere of a typical "frat party" in which the crew, or at least the officers and staff, freely participated. The dynamic seems to have been a competition among junior male staff to "score" with the most beautiful women onboard, similar to that which might exist in some college fraternity houses, rather than sexual frustration.

The reputable major cruise lines have very strict policies about sexual behavior by officers, staff, and members of the crew -- if there's so much as a credible allegation, the former employee leaves the ship in the next port of call. The reputable lines have very strict policies prohibiting members of the crew from entering any passenger cabin unless their duties require them to do so, and equally strict policies prohibiting all employees from inviting passengers into crew, staff, and officer spaces aboard ship. Violations of these policies bring very strict penalties up to and including immediate dismissal.

BTW, modern cruise ships also have security cameras throughtout all public and shared crew spaces, so it would be nearly impossible for any of the ship's officers, staff, or member of the crew to get away with prohibited behavior. The camera in the respective passageway would show them entering a passenger's cabin or bringing a passenger "below decks," providing hard evidence to support an allegation of misconduct.

Norm.

Rev22:17 August 2nd, 2006 10:30 AM

gambitscuba,

1 year ago.. on a cruise that i was on with my highschool band... one of the girls from my school was sexually assaulted by a crew member... she was underage... and the cruise line was less than polite to her and her sorrows, she still cannot get through the story, she was sent to therapy... and guess what.. it happens... im not coming out of left field with it...

I'm very sorry to hear of this incident, and I can see why it has raised your awareness.

These incidents are devastating. Unfortunately, they happen with far greater frequency ashore. The story of Molly Bish, for example, is far from an isolated incident. She was a high school student who worked as a lifeguard at a local swimming area at a lake. One day, she was abducted from her post. A couple years later, investigators found her remains, with pieces of her swimsuit, in a wooded area a few miles from the lake. Samples taken from the remains proved that her assailant raped her before killing her. Unfortunately, rapes of young women happen ashore with such frequency that most never make the news. This one did.

There's no substitute for being vigilant, being aware of your surroundings at all times, and knowing how to get help if you need it, regardless of where you are. I hope that you are as cautious and as vigilant at home as you are aboard ship because the danger actually is even greater. The "buddy system" -- avoid going out alone -- is also a good idea when you are in unfamiliar territory.

I also hope that you will encourage other young people to be equally vigilant and aware of their surroundings so that they also will not fall victim.

Norm.

Cassandra August 2nd, 2006 11:37 AM

Gambit, out of curiosity, what cruise line was this on with the attack? I know on RCCL or at least on the ship I went on, Serenade of the Seas, the crew is not allowed to use the public elevators/staircases to go below decks or to their jobs. Apparently they have their own private access near the back of the ship.

I didn't see any "sex-starved" crew members either. All were polite & we didn't experience any open flirtations, just members having fun conversations.

And what ships are you going on that the male members of the crew know your name? Are you going on the same cruise ship over & over these past 2 years? And if a male is looking at you strangely, why aren't you reporting it instead of the attitude of "you can't touch me". You must be doing something to bring attention to yourself if the male members of the cruise ship know you personally by name.

Dave the Wave August 2nd, 2006 11:41 AM

Ron brings up a good point. With the proliferation of balconies, it would seem more common for people to go overboard. One of my favorite ships, the Sovereign of the Seas, did not even have any until her most recent refurb and then they are limited to deck 10.

I have cruised with my kids 5 times and while it is in the back of my mind and I warn them about the railings, I have not been overly concerned about it. I have not heard one story about a child falling off the balcony or over the rail.

I would be curious, of those who have fallen overboard, how many were from the open decks, how many from balconies (we know of George Smith), how many were stupid drunk, how many were intentionally suicide and how many the result of foul play.

I venture to guess the majority, were drunk and either climbing on the rail or puking over it. Those raped and thrown overboard by crew I think would be none.

Fieldmouse August 2nd, 2006 06:05 PM

Another point...most of the crew are really, really overworked! They don't have time to do anything. As has been mentioned before...there are cameras everywhere...the crew and staff are watched closely...and ANY complaint is taken very very seriously!! At least on any of the major cruise lines.

On the cruise ships we've been on....HAL, RCCI and Celebrity...the crew and staff were always professional...and we could tell, they were very aware that their conduct was always being observed by other staff and crew.

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen...didn't happen, or hasn't happen...but I think that over all...the incidents of accidental falling overboard are because of a passenger being drunk...rather than a crew member tossing a passenger over the rail.

Lou August 4th, 2006 09:10 PM

Of course, this is just an opinion of my 17 cruises, but I applaud
the comments of DTW, Norm, etc....regarding oversexed crew
members acting up and assaulting passengers. Not that it has never
happened, but from what we read...rarely happens.

It's easy to see why headlines get out of control if they take
the same thought process as Gambit.

I myself, find cruise ships safe, well lit, cameras everywhere,
the staff very friendly. When we travel with teens, we tell them,
especially at night to stay together. Many of these same young
women walk city streets to school, shopping, malls, etc. where
crime statistics are incredibly high.

I hope I am not naive, but I just feel safe on cruise ships.

momofmeg August 5th, 2006 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gambitscuba
Just because the family feels there was no foul play doesn't mean that there wasnt.... There are hundreds of sexually frustrated crew members on those ships... and if one of them thought they had a chance with a pretty American girl and she decided to fend him off... outside on a deck... then im sure he probably pushed her off... I don't think it would have been suicide... I just don't see that as a feasible thought... you also have to wonder how much life insurance her family had on her... and if the fathers business might have been doing poorly the past couple of years...

Most ships on all the outside decks have cameras. that is how they knew that 21 year old guy fell of the Mariner of the seas a few months ago.

Apparently he was sick and drunk and had climbed up on the rail throwing up when he fell-at least that is what I got out of the account I read about it- the cameras caught the whole thing.

Now I don't think there are cameras on the private balconies-but crew members don't have balconies-their rooms are in the bowl of the ship-and not very nice.
So I don't think you have a very good theory.

I think you are just trying to terrify alot of single women-any woman that keeps her senses-does not set her drink down and leave it and then comes back to it and does not get roaring drunk and is foolish enough to go off with someone she just met-AKA Natalie Holloway- is just as safe as any where else.

How many women get asaulted in every major US city every day? It happens I bet every day and several times everyday in every major city on this planet-I actually believe a young woman is safer on a cruise ship then she would be in most major cities in the world.

By the way most cruiselines have strict polices about crew members fratinizing with ship's passengers. I know of one case where this 23 year old assitant waiter was fired and sent packing because of him going to the beach with a 19 year old passenger and her girlfriends for his hour off in Martinque. I know this because this young woman was a friend of my daughter's and she felt very bad about this. She had no idea there was such a policy.

Fieldmouse August 5th, 2006 04:42 PM

Most of the cruise ships employees are from countries where job opportunties are very limited.

The Staff that I've talked with have families who depend on THEIR income. This fact is just ONE great motivator in keeping someone in line. If a crew member gets fired...it doesn't just involve him/her...but their whole family can be affected. It's not like they can just walk off the ship and get another good job!

In general, the staff appreciate, want and NEED to keep their jobs, and will try to avoid any conduct that might lead to termination.

I agree with momofmeg about the efforts to scare single cruisers...especially women. It's not necessary...just use common sense!

seadog2 August 6th, 2006 10:23 PM

This is all very interesting banter. But the truth of the matter is that we really don't what happened. I would suggest however that the parents might know a little something more than they are revealing. To make a statement that they don't suspect "foul play" after the death of their daughter raises my eyebrows. If they don't suspect foul play than what are their thoughts? Also if i read the article correctly, the family is wealthy. Nothing was said about financial problems.....

Fieldmouse August 7th, 2006 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seadog2
This is all very interesting banter. But the truth of the matter is that we really don't what happened. I would suggest however that the parents might know a little something more than they are revealing. To make a statement that they don't suspect "foul play" after the death of their daughter raises my eyebrows. If they don't suspect foul play than what are their thoughts? Also if i read the article correctly, the family is wealthy. Nothing was said about financial problems.....

Perhaps they knew that their daughter suffered from depression... Wanting to further protect the family...they've not offered anymore information. But I'm sure the Police know more than they are saying.

This must be a terrible grief for the family...I wish them all the comfort their friends and extended family can give them.

seadog2 August 8th, 2006 12:48 AM

For a parent to lose a child certainly is a nightmare that no one should live. My thoughts of peace and comfort are with them also.

kd August 8th, 2006 05:39 PM

I have always felt very safe on board ship and I have never felt like I was being oggled by any crew or staff on a ship. I have never seen any crew or staff blatantly flirting with guests. However, I have witnessed many young women (particularly after a few drinks) flirt unashamedly with the crew members or locals in port. While I disagree that there are all these 'sexually frustrated ' crew members, I don't think some young women use much common sense either. In the case sited, there must have been ample proof of ie. suicide or accident that it was not pursued. Otherwise, it would have been much bigger news and the media would have made it front page news. I have 4 daughters and would not nesitate to book them on any RCCL ship.

Fieldmouse August 8th, 2006 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kd
I have always felt very safe on board ship and I have never felt like I was being oggled by any crew or staff on a ship. I have never seen any crew or staff blatantly flirting with guests. However, I have witnessed many young women (particularly after a few drinks) flirt unashamedly with the crew members or locals in port. While I disagree that there are all these 'sexually frustrated ' crew members, I don't think some young women use much common sense either. In the case sited, there must have been ample proof of ie. suicide or accident that it was not pursued. Otherwise, it would have been much bigger news and the media would have made it front page news. I have 4 daughters and would not nesitate to book them on any RCCL ship.

Well said, well said! I couldn't agree more.

Mean Dean August 8th, 2006 07:49 PM

As for George Smith, here's another possible scenario:

It is known that occassionally on cruise ships there are small groups of nefarious people on board. Their intent is to rob guests cabins of jewelry, cash, cameras, and other small, easily-transportable items.

As I understand it, (and I'm not making this up!) they will size up potential victims, and when the time is right, slip something into their drinks to knock them out. After that, they take the guest's room key, and rob the cabin. After one or more scores, the pirates get off at the next port of call and vanish.

I think it is possible this is what happened to the Smiths.

Consider this: For a couple who doesn't drink that much, she ends up unconscious, quite far from their cabin. We know this, because it is recorded in the ship's log that security personnel found her there, and in that condition. George is also seen heavily intoxicated, having to be helped to his cabin. Who is it that's helping him to his cabin? And then the loud scuffle inside the cabin -- a robbery attempt gone wrong? So he gets attacked (we know this by the blood found inside the cabin), and pushed overboard?

It's just a possibilty that I have, but it's one that fits the facts.

Dean

kd August 9th, 2006 12:24 AM

"It is known..." Really? or is it an urban myth, so to speak. Whenever I read of someone that is missing a ring from the safe or whatever, it makes me wonder. Recently, we went wilderness camping and canoeing. A few things seemed to mysteriously disappear, like the little bag of tent pegs. We assumed that a squirrel had run off with them. Once home, we found them in the large seal-line bag the tent gear was in. We got a big chuckle out of that and decided that from now on, when we have misplaced or lost something (in our premature senility), we'll just say "a squirrel must have taken it!"

StephenAGoreJr August 12th, 2006 02:10 AM

so, the George Smith case still baffles me. Always on NANCY GRACE on cnn. I love hearing about it, but hate hearing her bash the cruise industry. Either way there is a lot and I mean a LOT of sketchy stuff involved with that case.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:46 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1