Go Back   CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums > People > Chit - Chat for Cruisers

Chit - Chat for Cruisers Open Forum for non-cruise posts. Please refrain from inflammatory rhetoric that could be considered offensive. We reserve the right to edit or delete for any reason.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 27th, 2014, 05:05 PM
Thomas Thomas is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: My GPS says 12 ft. above 6 ft. under!
Posts: 7,287
Default Just returned from Fascination. Cutbacks!

The cost trimming on Carnival has been evident for several years. Most of them I could stomach, given the price of cruising for me is less now than it was 10 years ago. But these are not acceptable.


In the casino, blackjack only pays 6 to 5 unless you're at the $25 table where it's standard 3 to 2.


No ice bucket in the room anymore.


Platinum guests are no longer comped a free ticket to the blackjack tournament, it's now buy one get one free.


No calypso band on the Lido during sea day.


I would prefer to pay more for a cruise to have the amenities we had in the 90s.


<Rant over>


Regards,
Thomas
__________________
Book me on your next cruise and enjoy your personal punching bag.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old September 27th, 2014, 08:58 PM
Trip's Avatar
Trip Trip is offline
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 20,427
Send a message via ICQ to Trip
Default

I sailed this ship twice years ago. I wonder if this is just for this ship or fleet wide....the ship used to have a Hollywood theme, which I heard they removed years back. Too bad.
__________________


Trip, with her book & tea!
Chat Hostess & Board Moderator


Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old September 27th, 2014, 10:52 PM
Aerogirl Aerogirl is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,019
Default

No ice bucket must be very new as we had one in May and friends had one just 2 weeks ago.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old September 28th, 2014, 12:19 PM
green_rd's Avatar
green_rd green_rd is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indianapolis (USA)
Posts: 6,753
Default

Sometimes they hide the ice bucket in the mini fridge.

I agree re: calypso bands

Wouldn't have a clue about the casino
__________________
Bob

All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by; John Masefield
Carnival: Glory 2004, Destiny 2008, Splendor 2009, Freedom 2011, Valor 2012, Dream 2013
Celebrity: Summit 2011
Princess: Ruby 2010, 2014, Caribbean 2013, Coral 2014, Regal 2014, 2016, 2018, Crown 2019
Sail Croatia 2018
Sail Windjammer: Mandalay 2017
Star Clippers: Royal Clipper 2015
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old September 28th, 2014, 07:28 PM
Moiraine's Avatar
Moiraine Moiraine is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: on my computer
Posts: 6,099
Default

I am cruising the Splendor in November. I hope they have ice buckets in the room. I'll be asking for one if not.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old September 28th, 2014, 08:05 PM
nlb1050's Avatar
nlb1050 nlb1050 is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fort Pierce, FL
Posts: 2,534
Default

All you have to do is tell your steward that you want ice and how many times a day you want it then you get the ice bucket.


I don't go to the casino so can't help there.


And it has been a few years since they have had live music on the Lido.
__________________
Nancy L
2005-2 Princess, 2006-Princess MSC, 2007-NCL,2008-Carnival & RCI, 2009- MSC & Carnival, 2010- 2 Carnival,2011-Carnival, 2012-Carnival & MSC, 2013-MSC & Carnival, 2014- 2 MSC, 2015-2 Carnival & MSC, 2016-NCL & Carnival,2017- MSC, 2018-2 NCL & MSC & RCI, 2019 RCI & Carnival
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old September 28th, 2014, 10:09 PM
Aerogirl Aerogirl is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,019
Default

I'm hearing ice buckets on request only.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old September 29th, 2014, 01:59 AM
Lisa's Avatar
Lisa Lisa is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Wisconsin....about 100 miles south of the Frozen Tundra and 70 miles east of Camp Randall
Posts: 9,745
Send a message via AIM to Lisa Send a message via Yahoo to Lisa
Default

I am hearing the same thing as Aerogirl - ice buckets on request.


Since I only play the penny slots in the casino - I can't comment on the casino perks being cut.


And I agree - cut back some of that programming on the big screens and get some LIVE Caribbean type music!!
__________________
Carnival Breeze with Ray B and Aerogirl 5/4/14!
Lisa
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old September 29th, 2014, 02:29 AM
Mike M's Avatar
Mike M Mike M is offline
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: You're Looking At Me
Posts: 24,366
Default

Ice buckets are on a "request" basis. They are no longer automatic. However, if you want ice twice a day, all you need is to let your steward know on the first day.

The blackjack payout is ridiculous. I like to play but I don't like sitting at a $25 table. I don't mind a $10 table.

The "gimmick" games are also getting old. Put a dollar on the table and see if you get matched pairs or press the button on the wheel of fortune. Sorry, though people do win some extra they lose in the long run and the house takes a bigger profit. Plus they pull the Queens out of the deck.

I noticed the same thing on last year's trip to Vegas. More gimmick games and higher minimums. The auto shufflers are also working their way into the $5 and $10 tables at some casinos.

Take care,
Mike
__________________
Cruisemates Community Leader/Moderator

"There is a great difference between being well traveled and just having been to many places." ~Me

"Fear is the assassin of dreams." ~Me
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old September 29th, 2014, 07:17 AM
Cruznut2's Avatar
Cruznut2 Cruznut2 is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lakeland FL
Posts: 6,368
Send a message via AIM to Cruznut2 Send a message via Yahoo to Cruznut2
Default

I always request an ice bucket. I drink a lot of water and I like it cold. Never a problem and my ice bucket was always full of nice cold ice.


Laura
__________________
“Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.“
---Mark Twain

Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old September 29th, 2014, 09:23 AM
green_rd's Avatar
green_rd green_rd is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indianapolis (USA)
Posts: 6,753
Default

Also wondered why you didn't post this to the Carnival board. Have the cruise line specific boards gone syo stale?
__________________
Bob

All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by; John Masefield
Carnival: Glory 2004, Destiny 2008, Splendor 2009, Freedom 2011, Valor 2012, Dream 2013
Celebrity: Summit 2011
Princess: Ruby 2010, 2014, Caribbean 2013, Coral 2014, Regal 2014, 2016, 2018, Crown 2019
Sail Croatia 2018
Sail Windjammer: Mandalay 2017
Star Clippers: Royal Clipper 2015
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old September 29th, 2014, 01:01 PM
Snoozeman's Avatar
Snoozeman Snoozeman is offline
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bosque County, Texas
Posts: 5,435
Send a message via AIM to Snoozeman Send a message via Yahoo to Snoozeman
Default

All true, but they have been done over a period of time.

Maybe the new Director of Entertainment for Carnival will bring back the calypso band? I think the concert series has been a disaster, may be why they have a new guy!
__________________
Ray McDonald / Snoozeman

My Personal Cruise Blog: My Cruise Blog
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old September 30th, 2014, 09:55 AM
sue's Avatar
sue sue is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 5,206
Smile

In my humble experience as with everything in life you get what you pay for. Cut backs are everywhere due to the enormous greed some companies have displayed. I will always value customer service and will also pay extra to get that extra "ice bucket" lol However I would never cruise on Carnival and I never shop at Wal-Mart either...
__________________
Dec 9th 2015 Land cruise to Germany and Venice Italy

June 1st 2015--- Denali Explorer Cruise on Star Princess!


Dec 18, 2014 Caribbean Princess
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old September 30th, 2014, 10:51 AM
Aerogirl Aerogirl is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,019
Default

I never understood the comparison of Carnival to Walmar, Are we talking the class of people ?

There are no doubt cutback with Carnival as well as all lines and it's much different than my first cruise back in 1998 but still enjoyable . We're looking foward to the Allure in 2016.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old September 30th, 2014, 12:10 PM
Moiraine's Avatar
Moiraine Moiraine is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: on my computer
Posts: 6,099
Default

Well said, Aerogirl.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old September 30th, 2014, 01:48 PM
Mike M's Avatar
Mike M Mike M is offline
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: You're Looking At Me
Posts: 24,366
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sue View Post
In my humble experience as with everything in life you get what you pay for. Cut backs are everywhere due to the enormous greed some companies have displayed. I will always value customer service and will also pay extra to get that extra "ice bucket" lol However I would never cruise on Carnival and I never shop at Wal-Mart either...
This is a matter of taste. I can say that some of the worst service I ever had was on the Caribbean Princess. I haven't sailed Princess since. However, you have probably had few issues and like Princess. It's a matter of taste.

Carnival is usually lower cost but I've enjoyed every Carnival cruise I've been on. (11) but I can't say the same for Celebrity, Holland America, Princess or Royal Caribbean.

I also take a bit of offense to the Wal-Mart comparison. You will find everything from Neiman Marcus to Wal-Mart shoppers on Carnival and you will find Wal-Mart shoppers on Regent Seven Seas. If you mean that they appeal to a wider audience; yes, Carnival is the Wal-Mart of the seas. I also agree that you will find a rowdier crowd on a three - four day Carnival cruises than you will on a seven day, or longer, Carnival cruise. However, you will find that on a three or four day, NCL or Royal Caribbean cruise.

It's your choice to not shop at Wal-Mart but it is also other people's choice to shop there or not. I go to Wal-Mart, once in a while, and I don't feel like a lesser person for doing so. I also go to Macy's, Neiman Marcus and Nordstrom's and don't feel like a superior person for that either.

It's all a matter of choice.

Take care,
Mike
__________________
Cruisemates Community Leader/Moderator

"There is a great difference between being well traveled and just having been to many places." ~Me

"Fear is the assassin of dreams." ~Me
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old September 30th, 2014, 02:46 PM
sue's Avatar
sue sue is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 5,206
Default

Sorry I was not trying to come across mean...let me explain! Wal-Mart is being boycotted by us due to their poor treatment of employees. Every store is footed by the taxpayer for about another 200,000$ <which pays the benefits such as food stamps, medical etc> because Wal-Mart refuses to pay living wages. I was NOT referring to the people <sorry it came across is as such>


As for Carnival I think it is known for the shorter cruises on the older ships to have shown some lack of what cruisers used to have.


Yes Princess is my favorite <besides Disney> and I have yet to cruise Carnival. In no way shape or form was I speaking about people..just wanted to clarify this one more time
__________________
Dec 9th 2015 Land cruise to Germany and Venice Italy

June 1st 2015--- Denali Explorer Cruise on Star Princess!


Dec 18, 2014 Caribbean Princess
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old September 30th, 2014, 03:22 PM
ltnprncess ltnprncess is offline
Member
Familiar Face
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
Posts: 44
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sue View Post
Sorry I was not trying to come across mean...let me explain! Wal-Mart is being boycotted by us due to their poor treatment of employees. Every store is footed by the taxpayer for about another 200,000$ <which pays the benefits such as food stamps, medical etc> because Wal-Mart refuses to pay living wages. )
I've never understood this way of thinking. Wal-Mart wages, if we're referring to minimum wage, was never meant to be a living wage for families rather a starting off point. I had a minimum wage job while going to college. Obviously my wage has increased substantially since, but I could have never been able to afford a child let alone a family on that. As for your assertion that taxpayers foot the bill for Wal-Mart, that isn't accurate. Wal-Mart pays billions (with a B) of income taxes every year. This doesn't include the various fees and licenses to counties, states, government agencies etc. If people can't afford to raise a family on a Walmart wage, then they should find a job that will allow them the lifestyle they are seeking. It's not WalMart's fault people can't improve themselves and pick themselves up from poverty. I understand people may fall on hard times. The entitlement programs are there for short term use. Not to live off of for the rest of your life.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old September 30th, 2014, 03:56 PM
Cruznut2's Avatar
Cruznut2 Cruznut2 is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lakeland FL
Posts: 6,368
Send a message via AIM to Cruznut2 Send a message via Yahoo to Cruznut2
Default

I have sailed Carnival mostly for several reasons. I am single and the rates are better for me. Since I am not rolling on mattresses stuffed with $100 dollar bills it is nice that I can cruise for a reasonable amount. To be honest I sailed on Celebrity to Bermuda and it was not the best cruise ever. That is not to say I won't ever cruise with them again.
Ray, I am not sure that Caribbean bands will ever be back on Carnival ships. it is mentioned a lot in John's blog and it does not sound promising. I too miss them. There are just to many people who want country...ugh or rap crap. I hate seeing a lot of traditions drop by the wayside too. I will stick with Carnival just for the chance to cruise for a reasonable amount of money. I love being at sea and Carnival provides that for me and reasonable.


Laura
__________________
“Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.“
---Mark Twain

Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old October 1st, 2014, 01:40 PM
sue's Avatar
sue sue is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 5,206
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruznut2 View Post
I have sailed Carnival mostly for several reasons. I am single and the rates are better for me.
Laura
The new ship on Royal C allows singles now without an extra charge!
__________________
Dec 9th 2015 Land cruise to Germany and Venice Italy

June 1st 2015--- Denali Explorer Cruise on Star Princess!


Dec 18, 2014 Caribbean Princess
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old October 1st, 2014, 03:34 PM
Mike M's Avatar
Mike M Mike M is offline
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: You're Looking At Me
Posts: 24,366
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sue View Post
The new ship on Royal C allows singles now without an extra charge!
NCL's Epic, Gateway and Breakaway also have single cabins and an area exclusive to singles. Quantum offers single balcony cabins and that is a nice feature.

Take care,
Mike
__________________
Cruisemates Community Leader/Moderator

"There is a great difference between being well traveled and just having been to many places." ~Me

"Fear is the assassin of dreams." ~Me
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old October 1st, 2014, 06:40 PM
Manuel Manuel is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
Posts: 24,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerogirl View Post

There are no doubt cutback with Carnival as well as all lines and it's much different than my first cruise back in 1998 but still enjoyable . We're looking foward to the Allure in 2016.

My first cruise was in 1998 as well. Since then I have noticed cutbacks everywhere.
Today's cruises are still enjoyable but some of the glamour is gone.


TM
__________________
CRUISES
Century 4/1998
Mercury 4/2000+4/2006+7/2007
Sensation 4/2002
Infinity 4/2003
Summit 4/2004+4/2005
Carnival Liberty New Year's Eve 2007
Liberty of the Seas 5/2008+11/2009
Solstice 4/2009
Oasis 4/2010+4/13/2013
Allure 1/16/ 2011
Equinox 4/11/2011+4/4/2016
Independence 12/29/13
Vision OTS 2-14-2015
Freedom OTS 3/6/16
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old October 1st, 2014, 11:42 PM
ship2shore's Avatar
ship2shore ship2shore is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Bikini Bottom
Posts: 1,001
Default

Typical Guy on Carnival (Most are a bit less well-known, - sorry Darrell - )
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------------

Booked: Veendam - Montreal to Boston July 28, 2018
and Norwegian Bliss March 02, 2019

Washee Washee! Happy Happy!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old October 2nd, 2014, 02:46 PM
Snoozeman's Avatar
Snoozeman Snoozeman is offline
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bosque County, Texas
Posts: 5,435
Send a message via AIM to Snoozeman Send a message via Yahoo to Snoozeman
Default

Actually that photo does explains why DW does not prefer cruising on Carnival. If guests were more like Barry Weiss she'd be fine with them.

Bottom line: Carnival has too many Darrell's and too few Barry's.
__________________
Ray McDonald / Snoozeman

My Personal Cruise Blog: My Cruise Blog
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old October 3rd, 2014, 01:29 PM
sue's Avatar
sue sue is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 5,206
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ltnprncess View Post
I've never understood this way of thinking. Wal-Mart wages, if we're referring to minimum wage, was never meant to be a living wage for families rather a starting off point. I had a minimum wage job while going to college. Obviously my wage has increased substantially since, but I could have never been able to afford a child let alone a family on that. As for your assertion that taxpayers foot the bill for Wal-Mart, that isn't accurate. Wal-Mart pays billions (with a B) of income taxes every year. This doesn't include the various fees and licenses to counties, states, government agencies etc. If people can't afford to raise a family on a Walmart wage, then they should find a job that will allow them the lifestyle they are seeking. It's not WalMart's fault people can't improve themselves and pick themselves up from poverty. I understand people may fall on hard times. The entitlement programs are there for short term use. Not to live off of for the rest of your life.





You are wrong :In Georgia, Wal-Mart employees are six times more likely to rely on state-provided health care for their children than are employees of any other large company. (Source: Atlanta Journal-Constitution)
- Reliance on public assistance programs in California by Wal-Mart workers costs the state's taxpayers an estimated $86 million annually. (Source: UC Berkeley Study)
- In the first decade after Wal-Mart arrived in Iowa, the state lost 555 grocery stores, 298 hardware stores, 293 building supply stores, 161 variety stores, 158 women's apparel stores, 153 shoe stores, 116 drugstores, and 111 men's and boys' apparel stores. (Source: Iowa State University Study)
- Every year Wal-Mart purchases $15 billion worth of products from China. (Source: Washington Post)
- Today Wal-Mart uses over 3,000 Chinese factories to produce its goods—almost as many factories as it has stores in the U.S. (3,600). (Source: L.A. Times)
- All else being equal, U.S. counties where new Wal-Mart stores were built between 1987 and 1998 experienced higher poverty rates than other U.S. counties. (Source: Pennsylvania State University Study)]


According to a report by PBS's "Now" with Bill Moyer, their managers are trained in what government social programs are available for these"employees" to take advantage of so that the company can pass on those costs to you and me. It allows them to not only keep their $7 BILLION in annual profits, but to do so by substituting benefits they refuse to provide with benefits paid for with taxpayer dollars.

* With 4,400 stores they practice "predatory pricing." They come into a community and sell their goods at below cost until they drive local businesses under. Once they have captured the market the prices go up.
* Locally owned and operated businesses put virtually all of their money back into the community which helps keep the local economies vibrant. This corporation sucks the money out of the local community, decreases wages and benefits and ships the profits out of state.
* This company doesn't buy locally or bank locally. They replace three decent paying jobs in a community with two poorly paid "part-timers".
* In Kirksville, Missouri when this company came to town, four clothing stores, four grocery stores, a stationary store, a fabric store and a lawn-and-garden store all went under. Eleven businesses are now gone.
__________________
Dec 9th 2015 Land cruise to Germany and Venice Italy

June 1st 2015--- Denali Explorer Cruise on Star Princess!


Dec 18, 2014 Caribbean Princess
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old October 6th, 2014, 02:10 PM
Moiraine's Avatar
Moiraine Moiraine is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: on my computer
Posts: 6,099
Default

Sue, please don't let this person get to you.


I'm just glad that I know to ask for the ice bucket now.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old October 6th, 2014, 02:15 PM
Snoozeman's Avatar
Snoozeman Snoozeman is offline
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bosque County, Texas
Posts: 5,435
Send a message via AIM to Snoozeman Send a message via Yahoo to Snoozeman
Default

The 'other' side has just as many 'good' stories about Walmart, Sue. That's the theme of this thread...things change. We no longer have 'country stores', the small town businesses hurt them (autos), just as Walmart is now hurting the small town businesses (bulk transporting). It's all evolving. Eventually something will come along and hurt Walmart's business.

Your right, it hasn't been good for everyone, but I know that Walmart has been very GOOD for me and benefited both myself, neighbors, and my family. I'm a 75 mile trip from the nearest Walmart in Gatesville, Tx. I know of no one else that will ship low cost goods to me out here in the deep country for free. (we no longer have country stores...just a buggy ride away) In a way it has come full circle.
__________________
Ray McDonald / Snoozeman

My Personal Cruise Blog: My Cruise Blog
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old October 6th, 2014, 04:49 PM
sue's Avatar
sue sue is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 5,206
Smile

[QUOTE=Moiraine;1508213]Sue, please don't let this person get to you.


It always amazes me but does not surprise me at all.
__________________
Dec 9th 2015 Land cruise to Germany and Venice Italy

June 1st 2015--- Denali Explorer Cruise on Star Princess!


Dec 18, 2014 Caribbean Princess
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old October 7th, 2014, 12:02 AM
ship2shore's Avatar
ship2shore ship2shore is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Bikini Bottom
Posts: 1,001
Default

Change hurts. Just ask Polaroid. And Blackberry. And Kodak. And Smith Corona... the list goes on. All their employees had to "adapt with extreme prejudice".

Clothing made in Bangladesh.
Call centers, heck even whole Accounting Depts. moved to India.
Pretty much any finished consumer good comes from China now.

"Money Talks... and Jobs Walk"
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------------

Booked: Veendam - Montreal to Boston July 28, 2018
and Norwegian Bliss March 02, 2019

Washee Washee! Happy Happy!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
returned from fascination MikesMom Carnival Cruise Lines 3 January 24th, 2004 10:50 AM
Cutbacks???? Jessica A Celebrity 2 January 15th, 2004 06:21 PM
Just returned from a week on the Fascination - WOW! L.B. Carnival Cruise Lines 0 September 28th, 2003 08:45 PM
Just returned from Fascination cinchris1117 Carnival Cruise Lines 7 August 10th, 2003 03:14 PM
Just Returned-Fascination 8/24 Len Carnival Cruise Lines 6 August 30th, 2001 09:46 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:06 AM.
design by: Themes by Design