Go Back   CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums > People > Open Debate

Open Debate The only forum to discuss politics and religion. Please keep it civil.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 15th, 2014, 09:04 AM
venice venice is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: new orleans, la
Posts: 7,070
Default The Trials of Muhammad Ali

Excellent film on PBS last night focusing on Ali's greatest fight which took place outside the ring which was decided by the Supreme Court....When I was in College, he spoke on campus one week after the Supreme Court decision and I met him. I also attended the 1st Frazier fight in Madison Square Garden which was incredible

Anyone over 60, has had a ringside seat and a strong opinion regarding A li..regardless of how one feels about him, he stood by his convictions. which was finally recognized by Ali being awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom (presented by Bush. 43)and lighting the Olympic Torch in the 96 Olympics (which makes a statement on how the Country changed during that time span)

In college, I remember the student demonstration on campus the night Ali spoke in the student union...the irony of course is that 99% of the males protesting had a student exception draft status and the KKK burnt a cross in the student square that midnight

I am curious if cable tv (FOX, CNN, MSNBC)and conservative right wing radio will weight in on the film the next few days
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old April 24th, 2014, 11:00 PM
Manuel Manuel is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
Posts: 24,556
Default

Muhammad Ali { aka Cassius Clay ), was a rich draft dodger. If he had been poor he would have gone to jail.


TM
__________________
CRUISES
Century 4/1998
Mercury 4/2000+4/2006+7/2007
Sensation 4/2002
Infinity 4/2003
Summit 4/2004+4/2005
Carnival Liberty New Year's Eve 2007
Liberty of the Seas 5/2008+11/2009
Solstice 4/2009
Oasis 4/2010+4/13/2013
Allure 1/16/ 2011
Equinox 4/11/2011+4/4/2016
Independence 12/29/13
Vision OTS 2-14-2015
Freedom OTS 3/6/16
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old April 25th, 2014, 12:37 AM
AR AR is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
Muhammad Ali { aka Cassius Clay ), was a rich draft dodger. If he had been poor he would have gone to jail.


TM
1) Why is the fact that he changed his name relevant to this conversation? Just curious.

2) If he'd been poor he'd probably either have gone to war or to Canada.

3) There is no dishonor in having refused to serve in a war that is morally bankrupt. You're still allowed to have a conscience, and for you to imply that people who refused to serve in Vietnam were cowards is reprehensible. They may well have been heroes nearly as much as those on a black granite wall six miles from where I'm sitting. It is wrong to condemn them just as it was wrong to condemn the GIs returning from Vietnam (which so many did, to their shame).

Young people who felt the same way about Iraq and about Afghanistan at least were given the choice of not joining. And nobody's calling them out for it.
__________________
The most dangerous man in society is the man who has nothing left to lose. -- Saul Bellow
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old April 25th, 2014, 02:16 AM
venice venice is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: new orleans, la
Posts: 7,070
Default

If I recall correctly, Manuel served in Vietnam so I respect his opinion regarding Clay/Ali....I turned 18 in 1969, registered for the draft as 1A, and was placed in the lottery and was not called...I remember being on campus and watching upper classmen who had student deferrments protest Ali's being on campus and thinking what hypocrites they were

I rewatched the piece last weekend and it again reminded me how bitterly divided the Country was at that time along racial, class, economic,political ,the war.,religion..45 years later,it appears we have not learned much

Ali was the lightning rod...we now have the "luxury" of looking backwards to frame Ali's legacy in the context of those volatile times

Perhaps the better discussion would be in todays era of social media and 24 hour bitter saturation and hypocrisy on the part of cable FOX/CNN/MSNBC and right wing conservative talk radio...how Ali would be portrayed if he took the same stance in light of a post 911 World
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old April 25th, 2014, 07:18 AM
Manuel Manuel is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
Posts: 24,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AR View Post
1)

3) There is no dishonor in having refused to serve in a war that is morally bankrupt. You're still allowed to have a conscience, and for you to imply that people who refused to serve in Vietnam were cowards is reprehensible. They may well have been heroes nearly as much as those on a black granite wall six miles from where I'm sitting. It is wrong to condemn them just as it was wrong to condemn the GIs returning from Vietnam (which so many did, to their shame).

I did say that anyone was a coward, I simply said that being rich then as well as today allows you to skirt the law.




TM
__________________
CRUISES
Century 4/1998
Mercury 4/2000+4/2006+7/2007
Sensation 4/2002
Infinity 4/2003
Summit 4/2004+4/2005
Carnival Liberty New Year's Eve 2007
Liberty of the Seas 5/2008+11/2009
Solstice 4/2009
Oasis 4/2010+4/13/2013
Allure 1/16/ 2011
Equinox 4/11/2011+4/4/2016
Independence 12/29/13
Vision OTS 2-14-2015
Freedom OTS 3/6/16
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old April 25th, 2014, 09:09 AM
venice venice is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: new orleans, la
Posts: 7,070
Default

Manuel...I agree with you 100%, ..there is an unfair application of the law based upon how rich one is or how rich your family is and the ability to hire legal representation to work the system...

Vietnam was a classic example of your premise...Ali had just won the heaveyweight crown when he made his stand and at that point was not cash rich, because the Louisville 8 consortium (rich White businessmen who were on the verge of making a fortune from their "investment") were enraged when Ali converted... they had made arrangements behind the scenes for Ali to enlist, and follow the Joe Louis route and never have to go to Vietnam and fight and do "exhibitions", while they put the title on "ice" to protect their "investment"...the militant Black Muslims wanted to exploit Ali for their agenda and financial gain

Ali surprised both sides ..he went on his speaking tour to pay his legal cost and feed his family, prevailed in the SCOTUS in part because he could afford a high price legal team, but at the expense of losing a fortune and boxing skills in the prime earning power...

All for his principals (whether you agree with them or not) which is why I think he is so revered today
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old April 26th, 2014, 01:52 PM
zydecocruiser's Avatar
zydecocruiser zydecocruiser is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,881
Default

or a senator's son.
__________________
------------
My cruise web site
I show you my experiences and leave it up to you to decide if it is for you or not.




Done:

Carnival Horizon Transatlantic

Carnival Splendor Panama Canal

Royal Princess

Vision of the Seas

Carnival Miracle Alaska




Carnival Diamond
Princess Platinum
and more...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old April 26th, 2014, 08:33 PM
bonnyprincecharlie bonnyprincecharlie is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default Yes and "presidents"

Quote:
Originally Posted by zydecocruiser View Post
or a senator's son.
Yes and remember two of the presidents who became commanders in chiefs but missed action on the front line.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Gem is on her way. Sea trials next shoreguy Norwegian Cruise Lines 2 September 17th, 2007 09:52 AM
Sea trials - QM2 Suki Cunard 2 November 10th, 2003 12:20 PM
QM2 trials Craig Cunard 1 September 25th, 2003 08:16 AM
nfinity, sea trials chris&debs Celebrity 1 February 1st, 2001 06:05 PM
Infinity, sea trials chris&debs Celebrity 0 February 1st, 2001 04:02 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:35 PM.
design by: Themes by Design