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  #1  
Old June 14th, 2004, 02:04 PM
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Default Killing Fields, on your cruise

If you are thinking about taking a European cruise. Please do not book one that takes in Iceland or Norway these countries will take you on Whale watching tours and along with Japan they will contribute to over 1,400 whales being slaughtered this year for commercial and "scientific" purposes. They will not stop the practice.

Since 1986 between them they have slaughter 20,000 whales on this loop hole.

Do not take your money into these countries and maybe they will start to see a reaction from the rest of the world.
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Old June 14th, 2004, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

come on ...it's a whale. You should not judge others over how they use ( key word is use not waste) nature. Experiments need to be done, and people must make a living. Cultures are different. The New England Whaling industry has a great history. IMHO..

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Old June 14th, 2004, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

What sort of "experiments " are neccesary on whales. ? Baloney. And I doublt the "use" not waste theory also.In some countries they kill an animal for ONE part of it, thast's a alot of waste.
I am not a enviromental activist, but I don't see any good reason for whale hunting.
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Old June 15th, 2004, 05:24 AM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

IMHO once again it looks like someone is confusing “use” with “abuse”. Abusive behavior of any type is wrong.. David suggested “scientific use” which is why I referred to experiments. What environmentalists fail to consider is that humans are part of the environment. We belong here. Nature adjusts to the species that it supports. Nature will adjust to Man. We as a people use our environment to benefit us. After all there are privileges to being at the top of the chain. Once again please do not confuse “use” with “abuse”.

And please lets not be culturally insensitive. Because a culture is different from yours does not make it “wrong”

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Old June 15th, 2004, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

The idea of killing whales is, at first glance, very distrubing to me, however I guess I am being hypocritical since I eat beef, lamb, chicken, pork and fish. I am sure that I probably use products that were tested on animals. I would boycott the latter if I were more informed, shame on me.

I do know that many of the arctic cultures actually consume whale blubber and meat for survival. Don't know if this applies to the countries mentioned above.

As far as experiment, that also is disturbing, however if I knew that something they were doing could save the life of a loved one, I guess I would be very much in favor of the testing and experiments.

I am not very informed on this topic (obviously) but I wanted to post because I thought that the exchange on this message was interesting and (so far) respectful in the differing opinions.

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Old June 15th, 2004, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

While I'm against the mass exterminations of any of God's creatures, I really don't think withholding the few dollars that come from U.S. citizens is going to make a difference. Our predatory instincts will be our downfall in time, but until that day we can enjoy God's creations, or if you prefer, nature's creations. Granted, we are at the top of the food chain, but that's not an excuse to abuse that position. Someday we may not be in that position. As it is now, mankind practically annihilated whales, elephants, fur seals, buffalos, tigers, leopards, turtles and many other animals, before some of us came to our senses and passed some nature saving laws.
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Old June 15th, 2004, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

Well David , he did (op) post " commercail" as well as scientific reasons.I am not being " culturally insensitive" , I believe if you are killing an animal to eat it, or doing experiments on it that will one day contribute to the erradication of a dread disiease, then fine. But if you are killing an animal for " commericail " reasons, an animal that we do in fact have trouble maintaining a high population of( and some specicies of which are in fact endangered) then it is wrong. And please keep in mind that Norway is not in fact a third world country with the poor " natives" struggling to survive , and needing that whale to feed their family.
As for your cultural insensitivity remark. Do you recall where in the paper their was a big fuss because the King of the Romas had decided and arranged for his TWELVE year daughter to marry, and she had run away from the wedding. The father said it was in their "culture " to marry young. The daughter was most unhappy. She was in fact forced to go through with the marriage. Culture , smulture, that was wrong, and I don't care who's culture says it wwas right.The Incas thought human scrcrifice was fine. It was theri "culture" . Just because something is a countries culture doesn't make it right, and now with the resourses of the world being depleted , and we ALL need to share them, I have no problem in saying " killing whales for commerical reasons is wrong"

We may in fact have to agree to disagree, which is fine, there is always going to be different opinions on any given topic. I personally never plan to cruise any NOrthern country as I am a strickly sun /sand type, so I will never directly affect the cr uise industry in those climes.
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  #8  
Old June 15th, 2004, 10:05 AM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

I would prefer they not kill whales but as said in some cases it is part of the heritage for the area, which does not make it right or wrong. I do disagree with the arguement that people kill Cattle, lamb, chicken and pork and that is no different than killing whales mainly for the reason that these things are raised on ranches and the number killed can be controlled. I have never seen a whale farm or ranch which makes it harder to control the number of whales there are. There are some abuses in killing of whales and some species are dwindling down in their numbers and may not be around for long. Some are being saved due to the fact that evironmentalists do put up a fight to save them. There are abuses in the number of fish caught by commercial fisherman also which in some cases has eliminated some types of fish.

Yes some are needed for experiments and some countires do use part of them for food but as always if things do get out of hand and we lose to many whales it will be because man figured he could control nature again. If anybody has looked through history man has not been very good at controlling mother nature and all her wonders.

JMHO
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  #9  
Old June 15th, 2004, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

Second post from the top... "come on... it's a whale." It's statements like that that allow many sick people to abuse animals - I mean, come on, it's only a cat. I'm against any sort of cruelty to animals. Yes, I struggle internally with this, because I do eat meat. I guess if an animal is killed strictly for food, I could live with that. Medical research is borderline for me. I know it has to be done and it benefits everyone, but I still have mixed feelings on it. Killing or abusing animals in the name of non-medical research (ie. cosmetic testing) is intolerable (and yes, I do read product labels before buying cosmetics to ensure not animal tested). I understand about different cultures and to be totally honest, I prefer to stick my head in the sand and not think about animal abuses, but the comment about "it's only a whale" really irritated the hell out of me!! Regardless of any validity anywhere else in your posts, you lost all credibility with me with that one statement.
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Old June 15th, 2004, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

I am not by nature, "pardon the pun" an active enironmentalist. Yes I eat meat which is farmed, but I expect and demand of my producer that it is carried out in an acceptable way .

But I have seen these magnificent creatures and what these countries are doing is playing the culture card, "its what we have always done and we will carry on doing it".

Why,,,today? Hundreds of years ago when they lived in isiolation with no other food alternative I can accept it, but still today with mass alternatives !!!

Whaling and how they kill whales has never changed since the 19th century, its a harpoon with a grenade on it. The grenade tries to cause such internal damage that the whale will die. The scientific part of my original post is Norway determining how long it takes the whale to die. This can be up to five hours after being dragged onto the ship. Nothing from a whale I am aware of goes towards cure research for humans

Norway have since published that only 1 in 5 whales died instantly.

The industry gunners themselves admit that if whales could scream the industry would stop, for nobody would be able to stand it.

Thats why I would not give my money or acceptance to these countries by being there
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Old June 15th, 2004, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

Readytogo, I’m sorry that you feel that I’m not credible, and as a matter of fact I know many people that would agree with you . . My statement of “its only a whale” was made to prove a point. Have you ever swatted a fly ? Trapped a mouse? Put down a dog ? If you have ever done any of those a Buddhist would say that you crossed the line and had no credibility ! It’s all a matter of where one stands. I understand that some people will not agree with me. Does that make my point any less valid? IF one wanted to boycott a country because of child rape, slavery, or WMD”S fine. But whales? Please …

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  #12  
Old June 15th, 2004, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

This years Norwegian whale hunt has been underway since early May and will end on August 31, according to the newspaper Aftenposten. There is a quota set by the Norwegian government that allows 670 animals to be killed this season. So in that sense alone (ignoring cruelty and suffering), it is similar to farming animals for food and not a free-for-all slaughter to extinction. The newspaper also says the Norwegian hunt is solely commercial -- to supply whale steaks -- with no animals providing scientific research as "claimed" in Iceland and Japan.

There is a theory that whales share a common ancestor with pigs, camels, giraffes and hippopatami. That's neither here nor there; I just think it's interesting!

Tim
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  #13  
Old June 15th, 2004, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

So 670 fantastic beings will be slaughtered and for what.

Pig, beef and other farmed raised animals are controlled by their producer as they can see live stock, count their field and easily count the precentage remaining.

You cannot do that at sea, at best it is a guess, you cannot examine your stock to see who can breed and who cant. Who knows the damage they are doing. And so far no-one has actually answered why whales are still hunted by some countries when the rest of the world including the US said it was unacceptable in 1986

Tim, what is your last line about, get a grip !!!!!!!

Ed, your into whaling thats plain to see, if not why did you post " The New England Whaling industry has a great history. IMHO", please explain that statement, what is a great history, here today in 2004.

My country (UK) helped invent slavery, we invented concentration camps in South Africa, we hunted Aborigines in Australia like animals, but its not something I'm proud of.

Or for you is it,,,,,,,,,,I'm a big cowboy and if it moves I can kill it............its my right

If you just joined this please read my other posts before commenting, it may help
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  #14  
Old June 15th, 2004, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

It never ceases to amaze me how a thread can go from a few theoretical statements to a name calling personal attack.

David this is not the time or the place to educate you on the contributions that the whaling industry has made to this country. If you are ever in the Northeast I invite you the Whaling Museum in New Bedford ,MA. I was expressing my opinion.

Now lets address the cowboy statement that you made. You know nothing about me and I resent your characterization of me. I do eat meat. I wear leather. I do not swerve my car to avoid animals at the risk of injuring humans. I firmly believe that humans belong on this planet . We are part of this ecosystem. And 35 years ago my generation jumped out of UH-1A gun ships and did kill things that moved. If that makes me a cowboy…so be it. Oh and by the way Cowboys also have a great history in this nation..

( Ed Remembers that this is a cruise forum)

Sure am glad my cruise is almost here …I could use the break

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  #15  
Old June 16th, 2004, 10:36 AM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

Whales were saved by the discovery that we could drill for oil. Products of crude oil (kerosene) replaced the whale oil commonly used for lighting.

Boycotting is the worst form of protest invented. It rarely does anything to change policy, and even when successful the collateral damage to those in unrelated professions and businesses is incalculable. A boycott is economic carpet bombing, pure and simple. You are punishing shopkeepers and restaurateurs to make a point to a government that probably has little regard for your sensibilities. Those you are hurting might even agree with you, but bear the brunt of the damage.
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Old June 16th, 2004, 01:42 PM
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David,

I don't know why you would expect any correspondent in a cruising forum to answer "why whales are still hunted by some countries when the rest of the world including the US said it was unacceptable in 1986". It would make much more sense to ask the countries doing the hunting. The government of Norway provides both a practical and legal answer on its website:

"Whaling and sealing have always been an important means of livelihood for Norwegian coastal communities."

"Norway's legal right to carry out minke whaling is not in question, since Norway formally reserved its position on the IWC moratorium. This reservation was made pursuant to Article V of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling, the agreement on which the establishment and activities of the IWC are based."

As far as my comment on the ancient evolutionary link amongst whales, hippos, pigs, and giraffes, I meant nothing more than what I said: I think it is fascinating.

Tim

Q: How do you get whale steaks home from the supermarket?
A: In a cetacean wagon!
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  #17  
Old June 17th, 2004, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

Put it this way and it is a question regarding cruising. Which countries would you not go to because they do things that are not socially acceptable to you as a person or your way of life??

In today's anti USA, UK environment, there must be a few to pick from ......

Why not just go there,,,,,,,, well because you are there that is seen as acceptance of who and what they are and do,,,,,,,,plus every buck or pound that goes into their banking system is a call back on that country to repay.

But this is all a matter of concience and acceptability, me I dont care about shopkeepers, bar keepers or whatever trade hangs on me being their, if they dont get my money, then from inside they will ask why and change the system.

But my bottom line is I will not cruise into or give money to a country that kills whales for no real reason apart from tradition.

If I've been personal sorry, but to me this is not you're normal "fun" gripe, so I'm reactive and yes it does have to do with cruising regarding ports

DavyB
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  #18  
Old June 17th, 2004, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

ps Horseracer

Boycotting worked for Nelson Mandela and South Africa, okay it took nearly 30 years, but it worked
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Old June 17th, 2004, 02:43 PM
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David, you better drop the UK from your second paragraph, unless you're just counting Tony Blair. If you read the international news, you'd see that the vast population over there isn't on board with our governing team! As far as killing whales, I'm against it and would not be broken hearted to see some of those harpoon guns malfunction and maim the gun operators. If you play with fire, you deserve to get burned. However, there's no point in depriving yourself of seeing and enjoying the world, when it's not likely that the few dollars you put into anyone's economy is going to change anything. Unfortunately, It is what it is and our opinions don't seem to count for very much.
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Old June 17th, 2004, 03:17 PM
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South Africa is the exception that proves the rule. Hopefully we can agree that we are both happy that it worked in that particular case.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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Old June 17th, 2004, 04:10 PM
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Thanks Horseracer, its always good to find that middle ground, nice one.

Whiteknight, lets just say DOOOOOH on your political understanding, I appreciate the initial whale thought. But can we have the political one later on another board if you like.

Why because like President Bush, Tony is our current leader, some like both, some hate both, some like one and not the other,,,,,,,,,,but thats politics!!!

Believe me Blair will be in power for a while yet, ,,,,well he will if my vote counts.
Dont fall into the FOX, CNN or whatever TV politics that they try to fill 24x7 air time with. The Brits know Tony is the man, we know it's the USA and UK who are brave enough to try and sort this thing out, and hopefully make the world a safer place. Its our guys who are in there, lets just back them up.

The above conversation is an aside and in that time when we are playing, debating other issues and joking,,,,,,,,,, 5 whales have just been killed in countries that want us to vacation with them on cruise ships.
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  #22  
Old June 17th, 2004, 08:09 PM
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I'm sorry if you derived a political statement out of my comment. I was merely pointing out the error of your inclusion of the UK in your statement based on the BBC public opinion polls, not CNN or Fox. Sorry if it offended you.
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Old June 18th, 2004, 08:37 AM
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I have been following this thread with great interest and it occurs to me that many of the ports that are called on are in countries that oppress women. Some have very active, violent drug trades while others treat Americans with distain

I really don't know which way I go on this whale topic. I have been thinking about it a lot...thanks DavidB....I do like to be inspired to think and consider topics that I have not really been exposed to in any great degree.

I live on the west coast of Fla where you can see porpoise cresting as you drive home from work. I am always amazed when I see them...and i have lived here for over 30 years. I would be adamantlly opposed to those who endanger and hunt these beautiful animals. But I am so torn, because should we restrict our opposition to killing just to creatures that are majestic and of a higher intellect? How is killing a whale any worse than killing a grouper or a lobster? We have indigenous native americans in florida who still hunt and eat Manatees...and they are endangered, but his is what they have always done. Amercans are always being criticized, and often rightly so, for imposing our values on other cultures. People say that we think our way is the only and best way. Kinda xenophobic if you ask me (I just really wanted to use the word "xenophbic"!!)

Oh how I miss my time with my head in the sand!!!

BTW---not giving up cruising anytime soon, just may restrict my spending on shore to the bars!!!

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Old June 18th, 2004, 01:35 PM
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Pebbs -

For the most part a grouper or a lobster isn't an endangered species. For the most part, whale parts are not used to sustain life...except whale used to be in pet food. I'm not sure whether it still is. Mostly, whale by-products are used for cosmetics, fertilizer and industrial oil. Sometimes, it's used in margarine. The point is, there are cheap alternatives for all of these uses, rather than endangering a species.

But, some countries have a large whaling industry and the truth is, if you got rid of that industry, the countries might be in dire straits. So, what is the trade-off. In order for these societies to stop the whaling, they need to create some sort of sustainable industry to replace the revenue lost by whaling.

It's not much different than wanting Latin American countries to save the rainforest.

Pea
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Old June 18th, 2004, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

Great,,,this is an adult conversation on the GRIPES board.

Agreed Pea in their must be a replacement to substitute the income of those carrying out these traditions. But in the case of Japan, Norway and Iceland, I would say to all..lets be realistic,,, these are year 2k countries with an infrastucture in other industries that by taking whaling away, would not harm them at all.

I did not mean this topic to encompass or become a discusssion on "green" issues but the whales and the rain forest belong to the world. In some cases to stop it or them being destroyed we have to say I dont agree with waht you are doing, please stop.
Then the politicians can discuss or fund renumeration where required to cease the practice

The world and its beauty that I see on my cruise or were I live, I want to still be there in 100 years time for others to enjoy. If I stood back and ignored what was happening to it today, and it died with me having potentially funded it and given my acceptance to it, sorry I cant do.

Whiteknight, you did not offend me at all in any way. Opinion polls, well what can you say approaching election years on both sides of the pond. Dont know about the states, but Tony will be back in there and as we have done since WW1, the Yanks and the Brits will continue to sort it out for the rest.

Pebbs, you continue that thought if someone took those fantastic porpoises away from your view

DavyB
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Old June 18th, 2004, 07:33 PM
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You may very well be right, but I don't think the Canadians, Australians, mainland Europe and others would agree that we sorted it out for them since World War 1 and will in the future. Let's give those guys the credit they deserve, because without them we would not have prevailed. We can't walk on water yet. As for the whales, some animals in the wild are killed for survival purposes, some are killed for sport and some are just killed for the hell of it. In today's world, with the exception of the Eskimos, there is no justifiable reason to kill whales. And the whales killed by the Eskimos for survival are so few that it won't even register. This has really turned into quite an encompassing discussion. Hopefully, no one has had their feathers ruffled too bad. That's an expression we use down here in Texas. Yes, that's right, we don't all agree down here in Texas either.
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Old June 19th, 2004, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

Heck, whitenight, I'm from Texas, and I agree with you.
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Old June 19th, 2004, 01:40 PM
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My apology Whiteknight, the Canadians, Australians, Kiwis (New Zealand) and other countries have always been there for us and the world and do whats right.
It's just in todays environment that we are the ones being called out for having done something.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with my GRIPE or has it,,,, given the money our nations spend per annum on cruising compared to everyone else has a voice. How would the business react if we said we dont want to visit these countries because..........

That was an open question and not directed at Whitenight

DavyB
Ps The native eskimo, no problem at least they pick and choose like any decent farmer or hunter and they dont have masssive factory ships that could kill everything in sight, unlike Norway, Iceland and Japan.
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  #29  
Old June 20th, 2004, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: Killing Fields, on your cruise

Boycotting rarely works. I have a white friend from South Africa who visited family there last summer. She had to carry a gun with her when she went to CHURCH because blacks have been getting away w/ attacks on whites. (no- I'm not politically correct.) It's similar just in reverse of how the US was until the sixties. Back to whales. Bash me if you want, but as far as I'm concerned, humans come before animals. End of story.
Kerry
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Old June 21st, 2004, 07:46 AM
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Yes, humans should come before animals and plants. But, we live in a ecologically balanced world. Mother nature is a powerful force. We don't not know if an animal or plant that we cause to become extinct we be the very thing we need to survive in the future (think plants for medicinal purposes).

There are other options in most cases. Destroying a species is not needed for survival, but rather comforts. In the end, we may find our own existence cut short by the very things we destroy so callously.

Pea
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