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  #1 (permalink)  
Old October 16th, 2007, 02:08 PM
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Default RE: Paul Motter

Just wanted to thank you for practicing good judgement on this public forum. I appreciate it very much for locking the thread: [Recent Posts Are Discouraging].

I'm suprised there are grown adults in this public forum that do not how to conduct themselves.

ps - congratz on your recent marriage! Best wishes and I hope you share more of your wisdom with us in the near future. I truly enjoyed reading your posts.

Merci!
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by xCalBear
Just wanted to thank you for practicing good judgement on this public forum. I appreciate it very much for locking the thread: [Recent Posts Are Discouraging].

I'm suprised there are grown adults in this public forum that do not how to conduct themselves.

ps - congratz on your recent marriage! Best wishes and I hope you share more of your wisdom with us in the near future. I truly enjoyed reading your posts.

Merci!
Thank you, I hope you still mean it. I have to tell you that one thing I cannot tolerate in any message board, and especially my own, is when a group of people decides to gang up on one individual and use them for their punching bag.

There is someone on this board who I think has shared rational personal opinions, though they may be unflattering to a kind of single person, but as far as I can tell she has practiced restraint in pen the vast majority of the time (there have been a few slipups), but some people have chosen to make her life miserable beyond all reason.

This woman posts here all the time. A few people in this board decided she was a trouble maker and started playing little tricks on her.

For example, she booked a cruise with VTG and one of the people here (I don't know if he chose to do this on his own) thought he needed to take it upon himself to write everyone else going on that cruise - I assume he got their email addresses from VTG's message boards, and tell all of them this woman deserved to be shunned, that they should treat her like she was invisible! Unbelievable.

This was a cruise she already paid for, and happened to tell this board she was going. I was just astounded anyone would do that and I still am.

She did not try to "get back" at this person for what he did to her. She decided to "live and let live" and I admire her for that. She went on the cruise anyway, and says she had a lot of fun. When she got back she reported on what she saw, rationally, minding her own business, and some people here had to come out of the woodwork and post messages like "Just ignore this woman, we all do anyway." - just like they told the people on the cruise to do.

I am sorry, but no one has the right to say who is allowed to say what on these message boards or in life in general except the owner/operators of the venue. What this woman had to say I thought was valuable advice for anyone considering a singles cruise. But some people took everything she said personally. Sounds like it might have hit a little too close to home.

Yesterday one of those people wrote to me that if I didn't do something about her (I don't know what) I was going to lose all my regular posters in here. I asked this complainer how she would feel if someone did to her what was done to this woman on her booked cruise (writing everyone and telling them to ignore her).

Her reply was "I would do it to her, too. She deserves it, she asks for it." This was just part of a long threatening, abusive letter to me. She then went to the message boards and said some things about me personally and my ability to operate this web site.

She alluded to some private messages from the first lady. I have access to the private messages and I read them. In one of them she told this woman... "take your dirty dreds and get outta here."

Nice talk.

It seems to me that there is a reason why some people are single - they are intolerant and vindictive. They go pushing people around and picking fights, and if you fight back they scream that you started it, are a bad person and now it is all your fault.

I have no need for such people in my life. I know there are plenty of good people in here who take singles cruises who don't get into cliques and play tricks on strangers, but I find it HIGHLY ironic that these people got so defensive about what this woman was saying though THEY say they "aren't like that." And then they demonstrated the exact kind of behavior this woman said she didn't care for in some single people.

Listen - when you go on a singles group cruise, you should welcome everyone equally. They are there for company, to meet people and to have a good time, not everyone is looking for romance or to hook up, but if it happens - then you are all adults, act like it. If someone says "I'm not looking for romance, please don't hit on me," don't take it personally, it is just their choice not to get involved in that type of behavior.

UPDATE: At least one of these people has decided to quit Cruisemates.

We hate to lose any rational regular posters, people who know how to express experiences and opinions and say "your experience or point of view may vary, but this is mine."

But there is a class of people who fall into the category of "message board bully." They take it upon themselves to tell everyone else in the boards, including the moderators, what they are supposed to think and how they are supposed to run their own message boards. Furthermore, if you don't abide then you are stupid, unqualified and don't know what you are doing in your job.

Unfortunately for them, the only threat they can carry out against us is to leave if we don't do what they say. So I said, fine, please do leave.

I apologize to the group for all of this drama, but the point is that sabotaging people, calling them names, questioning their intelligence, motives and veracity means nothing if you can't refute the original statement. As long as a person can formulate a cogent thought without insulting anyone personally they are allowed to post here. We do not practice "thought control" here by censoring unpopular opinions. But we do censor posts that say "just ignore everything this person has to say, she doesn't know anything." That is a baseless "personal attack" in our rulebook, which is not allowed.

I tried to be nice to the person who was unhappy - but histrionics can be very tiresome, and the worst thing you can do for an anger-monger is to let them get away with their intimidation.

Whether an opinion is popular or not has nothing to do with how we moderate. Our goal is to give everyone equal say. Everyone has a different point of view. Sometimes they are "negative" - too bad. It is one persons experience, not the final word. Your experience may vary, if so, say so in a civilized manner. But you are not going to convince me you are right about anything if you attempt to do it by throwing your weight around, doing dirty tricks behind my back, threatening me, or calling me names INSTEAD of just saying why you disagree with someone.

I do not try to judge who's opinion is "right or wrong" because everyone's experience is different. What I care about is people respecting other people and being able to discuss topics logically. This is NOT a popularity contest, it is a message board for people looking for solid information and unbiased, uncensored opinions.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 12:17 AM
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Amen to everything Paul Motter said!

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Old October 24th, 2007, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: RE: Paul Motter

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Originally Posted by Paul Motter


She alluded to some private messages from the first lady. I have access to the private messages and I read them. In one of them she told this woman... "take your dirty dreds and get outta here."
Hey Paul,

I won't go into this subject anymore because I think it will just be beating a dead horse and I'm ready to move on as I hope everyone else is. 8)

However, I have a serious question that I believe others may be interested in as well. How much of the private messages do you read on a regular basis? I understand if one of the parties involved in the PM is complaining but do you also read other messages on a regular basis?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thank You,

Bill
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Old October 24th, 2007, 01:35 PM
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Honestly, I have gone in to read them two times, specifically when this one person complained that she was receiving inflammatory ones a few weeks back and again yesterday.

You would be amazed how mundane 99% of them are.

Someone once wrote a great piece about message boards, and how if you moderate them you are messing with people's right to free speech and blah blah blah. His reply was, "no, when you visit my message board you are in my house, and I decide what is or is not acceptable." It is naturally the same with PMs, although I don't make it a habit to read them (they are quite boring anyway) I think I would be foolish not to have the ability to read them since I provide this venue.

I'm not going into the issue anymore either, I just wanted people to know what kinds messages led to my actions, because the people I was trying to calm down and explain our rules to were just plain uncooperative, angry and verbally abusive to me and to other posters. I think the phrase "blame-shifting" should be common in our language. It is what people do when they are doing something abusive and saying "You're making me do it, it isn't my fault, I'm not the one, you are..." What they don't see is that their reactions are totally out of proportion to the initial action. It's like walking down the street and accidentally bumping into them and them coming back and pounding you into the street. "YOU MADE ME DO IT!" is so commonly the fallback defense of truly abusive people.

I really just don't think we need that here.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 02:47 PM
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Thanks Paul,

I was pretty sure that you had better things to do than read those messages on a regular basis.

Bill
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Old October 24th, 2007, 05:31 PM
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People come in all shapes, sizes and stages.

I am active in meetup.com in NYC. I recently attended a get together held in a bar/lounge in Manhattan. There was one young lady there who, upon entering the bar, walked up to a group of us (all women) standing at the bar. She was quite taken back that it was a gathering of both men and women. She was invited to attend this function by an all women meetup group and assumed that only women would attend.

Now, I have no idea why this lady did not want to mingle with men. She said, "I am not ready to deal with men right now." I didn't ask why. I just patted her on the back and told her to have a good time and that "the men don't really hit on you here." I introduced her to the women I was standing with and left her with them. She ended up spending most of the evening with this small group of women and seemed to have a very good time.

Why wasn't this woman "ready to deal with men right now?" Your guess is as good as mine.

I tell this story because there is no way to tell where a person is emotionally or mentally and it is important to be fair and honest so that when a person books a vacation/cruise with a certain group, they will know what may or may not be involved. That is the whole purpose of going to these forum boards. To get an inside track and the real skinny.

A person may want to broaden their horizon, hoping to meet some new unattached platonic friends and (for personal reasons) wanting nothing to do with any type of romantic/coupling scenario. It is only decent to let these people know what may or may not transpire.

There are others that believe that a cruise is a great hunting ground for their next soulmate and envision an episode of the Love Boat. These people should also be able to come to these forum boards, if nowhere else, and get some idea of the real deal. If not, then they are just lambs being led to the slaughter.

Imagine not realizing that all of that sweet talk during the cruise is just cruise pillow talk not meant to be taken any further than debarkation. There are many that understand the "deal" going in but there are also many that do not. They are naïve to the dismal success rate of these ship-borne romances. And, for them, the potential for emotional devastation is great.

No one is saying air dirty laundry or just tell the worst. But, do be honest so that the people who look to these forum boards for information can enjoy their endeavors with full knowledge of what to expect.

I don’t believe all of those people who found ship love on my cruise were aware that their “fling? probably ended at the bottom of the gangplank at the end of the cruise. No, these were very regular, very everyday folks. They were not a worldly bunch looking for a week of wickedness.

Oh yeah, for the Halloween bunch leaving a few days . . . .

Happy cruzin'

Bring back lots of great and funny stories to share.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
"I tell this story because there is no way to tell where a person is emotionally or mentally and it is important to be fair and honest so that when a person books a vacation/cruise with a certain group, they will know what may or may not be involved." Ibcruzin
I agree with you here, sometimes people aren't ready because they jusyt got divorced and they realize they are angry at men or on the rebound and they realy just don't want to hurt anyone.

I don't agree with you about every shipboard romance ending at the gangway. I know some people do meet soulmates on ships. I have several real life examples. The question is "how do you know?" because I am sure the other stuff happens all the time as well.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter
Quote:
"I tell this story because there is no way to tell where a person is emotionally or mentally and it is important to be fair and honest so that when a person books a vacation/cruise with a certain group, they will know what may or may not be involved." Ibcruzin
I agree with you here, sometimes people aren't ready because they jusyt got divorced and they realize they are angry at men or on the rebound and they realy just don't want to hurt anyone.

I don't agree with you about every shipboard romance ending at the gangway. I know some people do meet soulmates on ships. I have several real life examples. The question is "how do you know?" because I am sure the other stuff happens all the time as well.
Yeah, I didn't mean to word it that way. I am sure some of these acquaintances run their full course. I just think that they may be less likely than the short romances. However, like all concerns of the heart, it is a gamble and a crapshoot.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Yeah, I didn't mean to word it that way. I am sure some of these acquaintances run their full course. I just think that they may be less likely than the short romances. However, like all concerns of the heart, it is a gamble and a crapshoot.
OMG, I am still young and stupid. Please don't fill my head with these discouraging words. I know my better half is outtere somewhere!! Tell me I have control, please???
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Old October 24th, 2007, 08:44 PM
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Paul, I have decided to leave this message board due to the fact that my private messages may have been read by you.... if not.... when you get a chance go read what IBCRUISEN wrote to me. She said some terrible things to me thinking it was a private message to me. She is a mean spirited woman and I prefer to leave than to have my privacy invaded by you..... or be held responsible for what other people say to other posters. That is not my responsibility because I don't have the power to delete the trolls from this message board. It is your responsibility.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelgal
Paul, I have decided to leave this message board due to the fact that my private messages may have been read by you.... if not.... when you get a chance go read what IBCRUISEN wrote to me. She said some terrible things to me thinking it was a private message to me. She is a mean spirited woman and I prefer to leave than to have my privacy invaded by you.

GOOD-BY EVERYBODY!!! I am leaving for good. I am sure the Trolls will be happy to see me gone. Angelgal/Luci
C'mon. I showered several times for you. Do I smell that bad???
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Old October 24th, 2007, 09:25 PM
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Afraid the sea is filled with pretty mermaids and sea witches. If I recall my Disney, those sea witches frequently have the ability to take mermaid form. That means you have less than a less than a 50/50 chance of being able to swim out and catch a real mermaid, so swim at your own risk!

Now, if you survive, find a real mermaid, and bring me her pretty sister, I'll buy you a beer.

Surfs up, XCB!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xCalBear
OMG, I am still young and stupid. Please don't fill my head with these discouraging words. I know my better half is outtere somewhere!! Tell me I have control, please???
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Old October 24th, 2007, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Divemaster
Afraid the sea is filled with pretty mermaids and sea witches. If I recall my Disney, those sea witches frequently have the ability to take mermaid form. That means you have less than a less than a 50/50 chance of being able to swim out and catch a real mermaid, so swim at your own risk!

Now, if you survive, find a real mermaid, and bring me her pretty sister, I'll buy you a beer.

Surfs up, XCB!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xCalBear
OMG, I am still young and stupid. Please don't fill my head with these discouraging words. I know my better half is outtere somewhere!! Tell me I have control, please???
Make that two Shiners ??? 8)
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Old October 24th, 2007, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xCalBear
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Yeah, I didn't mean to word it that way. I am sure some of these acquaintances run their full course. I just think that they may be less likely than the short romances. However, like all concerns of the heart, it is a gamble and a crapshoot.
OMG, I am still young and stupid. Please don't fill my head with these discouraging words. I know my better half is outtere somewhere!! Tell me I have control, please???
Yes, your better half is out there but you have to be willing to give someone a chance and open yourself up. This may be one of the hardest things for humans to do. Self-preservation is hard to fight. But, love is the biggest, best and most rewarding gamble of them all.

Go forth and seek ye other half.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 11:12 PM
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Deal - just don't come out of the water with your own shiners from a fake mermaid that you should have thrown back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xCalBear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divemaster
Afraid the sea is filled with pretty mermaids and sea witches. If I recall my Disney, those sea witches frequently have the ability to take mermaid form. That means you have less than a less than a 50/50 chance of being able to swim out and catch a real mermaid, so swim at your own risk!

Now, if you survive, find a real mermaid, and bring me her pretty sister, I'll buy you a beer.

Surfs up, XCB!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xCalBear
OMG, I am still young and stupid. Please don't fill my head with these discouraging words. I know my better half is outtere somewhere!! Tell me I have control, please???
Make that two Shiners ??? 8)
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Old October 24th, 2007, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Quote:
Originally Posted by xCalBear
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Yeah, I didn't mean to word it that way. I am sure some of these acquaintances run their full course. I just think that they may be less likely than the short romances. However, like all concerns of the heart, it is a gamble and a crapshoot.
OMG, I am still young and stupid. Please don't fill my head with these discouraging words. I know my better half is outtere somewhere!! Tell me I have control, please???
Yes, your better half is out there but you have to be willing to give someone a chance and open yourself up. This may be one of the hardest things for humans to do. Self-preservation is hard to fight. But, love is the biggest, best and most rewarding gamble of them all.

Go forth and seek ye other half.
OMG, your words finally struck me hard. I may never find her after what you said above. I already gave up gambling, drinking, and smoking. My friend said if I just give up on women/love, then I will have more $$ to cruise. But, if I were to give up on love/women, drinking, smoking, and gambling altogether, then I will just become Catholic Priest, no?? To be frank, I do not want to go down that path as ............ ?? Oh, I better not say.. it's very sinful
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Old October 25th, 2007, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelgal
Paul, I have decided to leave this message board due to the fact that my private messages may have been read by you.... if not.... when you get a chance go read what IBCRUISEN wrote to me. She said some terrible things to me thinking it was a private message to me. She is a mean spirited woman and I prefer to leave than to have my privacy invaded by you.

GOOD-BY EVERYBODY!!! I am leaving for good. I am sure the Trolls will be happy to see me gone. Angelgal/Luci
Um, I'm confused, you are upset and leaving because i have the ability to read private messages, but you are asking me to to go and read your private messages ?

Wait a minute - I've met women like you before, I think you are trying to get me to read your private messages so you can get mad at me for doing it, and then you are going to throw a temper tantrum and say everything is my fault because I read your private messages and so i forced you to leave.

Am I getting warm here? - where are we taking this relationship?
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Old October 26th, 2007, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Angelgal wrote:
Paul, I have decided to leave this message board due to the fact that my private messages may have been read by you.... if not.... when you get a chance go read what IBCRUISEN wrote to me. She said some terrible things to me thinking it was a private message to me. She is a mean spirited woman and I prefer to leave than to have my privacy invaded by you.

GOOD-BY EVERYBODY!!! I am leaving for good. I am sure the Trolls will be happy to see me gone. Angelgal/Luci


>>>>>>>>>>>>
Angelgal/Luci, in case you come back to this board one more time and see this post, I do hope you will reconsider and return often. Your postings have been some of the most interesting for singles, and I have personally enjoyed them immensely, and I know a lot of others have also. We will miss you!

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Old October 27th, 2007, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelgal
Paul, I have decided to leave this message board due to the fact that my private messages may have been read by you.... if not.... when you get a chance go read what IBCRUISEN wrote to me. She said some terrible things to me thinking it was a private message to me. She is a mean spirited woman and I prefer to leave than to have my privacy invaded by you.

GOOD-BY EVERYBODY!!! I am leaving for good. I am sure the Trolls will be happy to see me gone. Angelgal/Luci
Um, I'm confused, you are upset and leaving because i have the ability to read private messages, but you are asking me to to go and read your private messages ?

Wait a minute - I've met women like you before, I think you are trying to get me to read your private messages so you can get mad at me for doing it, and then you are going to throw a temper tantrum and say everything is my fault because I read your private messages and so i forced you to leave.

Am I getting warm here? - where are we taking this relationship?

wow!! I am now a Paul Motter fan for life!!!!!!


*applause*


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Old October 27th, 2007, 11:25 AM
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Actually, I am a little sorry I was so sarcastic, but I have been down that road many times and I just don't have the patience for dealing with people who think they have the rights make demands of me in that way.

I almost always try to come to people from a point of respect, but I also know that with some people you cannot win no matter what. These are the people I call blame shifters - nothing is ever their fault because they cannot face the fact that they have faults - or could possibly be wrong, So, they go to great pains to think about ways in which they can salvage any situation and make themslevs look "right" again - and that often comes from "blame-shifting" with phrases like "you made me do it," or "you deserve it," or "you asked for it."

Actually, I would like to say I am sorry to AngelGal, it was a cynical response and I admit I was tired when I did it. And that I didn't even want to look in here to see where the conversation went.

I don't like confrontation. As often as humanly possible for me I try to err on the side of courtesy and respect to everyone.

And I actually think that is good advice for singles who cannot seem to find a partner. Let down your guard and admit when you are wrong. Be tolerant and forgiving, even of yourself, and don't dweel on the bad stuff.

I was talking to an attractive sister in law I just met yesterday and actually was stuck entertaining for a whole day. Its nice to be able to meet someone else attractive of your own age and not feel like there is any sexual tension. We talked about single people and we both came up with the same description - DRAMA.

Everything (she says for single women especially) is a drama. This guy did this, that guy did that...

Before I got married I dated a lot of women over a 3 year period (local people I met online) and I inured myself to rejection and drama. Calbear - women are complicated! They want things from us we don't even realize and therefore you never know when you are going to p*** them off.

We go into a relationship thinking "I'll just get to know her and see where it goes" Meanwhile they are watching everything you do..

Did he call me back right away?
Did he pay for everything?
How does he treat his family?
Did he just lie to me?
Has he ever said I'm beautiful?
Did he notice my new haircut?....

And they talk to their friends about it and they all decide how you "deserve' to be treated.

That is MOST single women, but not all. If you are smart, you will find one who really likes you for who you are, and who enjoys the same things you do. Find a nurturer who can also carry on a conversation. If she has some kind of career and can help support a family you really have a winner.

STAY AWAY from good looking women who don't have anything going for them except their looks. They are the type who will think they can coast on their "beauty" for the rest of their lives and they are looking for guys who can support them in their lifestyle. The tip off is that they try to control you by criticizing you - if they can do that, and you make money, you are a "catch". Especially if you are acceptibly good looking.

By the way, the one thing they usually do is impress you with how they are "oh so good." They will tell you how sweet they are and would never be bad, etc etc etc, meanwhile they are the most backstabbing people you have ever met. As I said, when it comes to a fight they would rather leave than ever say "I'm sorry, I was wrong." And that is the big drama -- "I am leaving and you are making me do it, it's YOUR fault."

I found Internet dating to be very easy, some people say they can't get dates but the main thing is not to be defensive or judgemental. Be genuinely nice to people, be casual and just get along with them. Then date the ones you who like you (and that you like) on a regular basis. You don't have to love them, but it is better than spending your nights alone. Don't make them promises about a relationship but be good to them. You might find you fall in love with one of them, or at least when you meet the right one you are ready, you have gotten over all the rejection and drama and you are used to the games women play.

When I finally met my wife (at my high school reunion) we had a LOT of chemistry but she had been out of the dating loop for 16 years raising her daughter alone. She is attractive, but she had a lot of defensive around her, a little drama, etc. Everytime she got dramatic on me and "left," I just stayed cool. Even if she "broke it off with me" She always came back.

So, bottom line, the way to be single and find someone is to keep your cool. You don't have to prove yourself to anyone. Women will like you and be attracted to you as long as you are a nice person with something on the ball.

Just watch out for getting caught up in things that are over your head. Like women who move too fast. If they started suggesting remodeling your house you know they have plans for you, just be careful you are not being used for what you have instead of who you are.

And I have not gone to look at the PMs, it requires a fair amount of work. The times I did it I admit there was some anomousity on both sides, but that I found it much more egregious on one side than the other.

The missing element seems to be forgiveness and acceptance. Once some people here decided this one person was out of line there was nothing she could do to change their minds. They ganged up her and beat her up (figuratively) repeatedly no matter what she said. And that is cliqueish high school behavior not fitting for adults in my opinion.
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Old October 27th, 2007, 01:09 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2003
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Paul and Pat,

Thanks to both of you for taking on a thankless job. You've both done a tremendous job of trying to be a voice of moderation. Some of the things I've seen posted in this forum and the behavior you refer to is appalling.

Shelby
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