Dartoid, I have read ALL of your posts on Cruisemates and I think, YOU think TO much. When I'm eating a good steak I don't think of the cruel way the beef was transported then killed so I can have my enjoyment nor do I try to blackball any business that sells beef. If we all thought about all the injustices in this world we would go nuts, its just a fact of life you refuse to acknowlegde (but you have that right). In my experience the three most difficult people to talk or reason with are born again Christians, reformed smokers and anyone with a Green Peace attitude. Your over the top on this subject and maybe alienating more people then your converting. Some of your points are good AND strong but some are not.
When I here you preaching to the young and impressionable I think of the multitude of religious zealots who recruit the young into their cults for their own personal reasons, sometimes money but always to hold power over the less intelligent.
Take it easy, have a tuna sandwich and an ice tea, chill out, your message was heard, stop trying to convert us to YOUR thinking.
Well golly, Cruiseboy, thank you for reading my posts.
For the record, I started this thread to encourage cruisers who think swimming with dolphins is or might be fun, to consider that there just might be an issue here worth considering.
There's a difference between a dolphin and a cow, Cruiseboy. But I won't go into it. It might make you think.
No doubt some would submit there is quite a difference between those you compare and seem to have disdain for -- born again Christians, "cults" and persons who are typically refered to using the term "religious zealots." But I won't go into it. It might make you think.
There's a tremendous difference between recognizing that there are injustices in the world and ignoring them (so you won't go "nuts") or taking a position, and doing what ever small part you might to correct the injustices. But I won't go into in. It might make you think.
And, politics, religion, convoluted logic and your mispellings and poor grammar aside, it is generally accepted that the most "difficult people to talk or reason with" are the uninformed -- those whose opinions are "founded" on little more than emotion and air, not based on research, study and a well-rounded understanding of both sides of an issue.
Cruiseguy, I just thought I'd let you know that a lot of religious people who try to convince you to see the light honestly care about others. I don't go up to others just to evangelize and annoy them, but to help them.
Kerry in Columbus, GA
cruiseguy was jus making a comparison--he wasnt saying they were the exact thing. You guys dont see that, obviously, if you think he meant it to be the same thing as the horrific deaths of the dolphins. And who cares about grammer and spelling. We're online, on a forum post i really dont think it matters-as long as u get ur point across.
Carnival Conquest: April 4th-11th 2004
Carnival Victory: April 20th-27th 2003
Dartoid, go head and go into it, I have found that persons who won't respond to an issue normaly attack others to cover their own shortcommings or understanding of a subject. You have the brains, I'v seen it, now use them for something other then holding your ears apart.
I've done my best to offer "the rest of the story" in order, perhaps, I hope, to encourage some to think before they participate in a "swim with" prorgam because its advertised as great fun by the cruise industry. It seems I've written a book. That certainly wasn't my original intention. Enough said. At the end of the day, each individual has to make their own choices in life. I just happen to believe that a "choice" can't truely be made unless it is a decision based on a collection of the facts and then balanced with one's own value system.
If you sincerely wish to have further discussion about this or the other unrelated issues you have thrown into the mix, I would be pleased to do so off-line. Just e-mail me.
There's nothing wrong with your motto. We are the same as animals in the respect, certainly, that we are all sentient beings -- we both feel fear and pain. Certain animals (dolphins, many primates and elephants high on the list) are extremely intelligent, live very much like we do, are self aware. I posted here to encourage people to explore the issue a little -- to educate themselves -- before just spashing into the water to swim with dolphins at a captive facility. I don't mean to force my view of such things on others, only to suggest a rational decision-making process and encourage those, if they then find there's merit to my view, to urge the cruise industry not to promote the "swim with" programs. Nonetheless, I do have to admit that I find it frustrating (though not necessarily surprising) when someone who proports to want to learn and explore and is extended the opportunity to continue the discussion off-line and then snidely dismisses that offer.
I think Dartoid has brought up some good points, it does have to do with cruising, so whats the big deal. If you don't understand the imformation he's sharing or its too much for ya then just read on or go on to another post. we all have the choice, al least its not a discussion on Prom dresses that turned into a cat fight, it does have to do with the industry and we all probably learned something.
<<If you don't understand the imformation he's sharing or its too much for ya then just read on or go on to another post.>>
I understand perfectly, and the "information" he is sharing is making my B.S. meter go off the chart!
Go back to the very beginning of this thread...
Dartoid says, "In what is antiseptically called their drive fishery, each October to April the Japanese herd more than 22,000 adult and baby dolphins and small whales into shallow lagoons and then savagely spear, slash and stab them. "
He doesn't mention that the annual hunt in Taiji goes back some 400 years--about some 385 years before dolphin swims were ever thought of.
He doesn't tell you that maximum number of dolphin that can be taken in Taiji is 2,900 (not 22,000).
He doesn't tell you that the total number of annual dolphin kill in Taiji is something less than 1,500--according to the humane society--by less then 30 fishermen. Do you really think 30 fishermen can kill 22,000 dolphin in one season?
And why do they do it? Because a certain segment of the Japanese population like to EAT the buggers! I don't know why, but they do. They also like to eat whale meat--go figure. Been doing it for a long, long time. To Westerners, the Japanese have some strange habits, as Gilbert and Sullivan humorously described over a 100 years ago in "The Mikado".
But what does the culinary delight of the Japanese have to do with a teenager on a cruise swimming with a dolphin? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
(BTW, please be careful in passing judgement on other culture's culinary habits. While we Westerners think eating a dolphin to be barbaric, there are other cultures that think we are equally barbaric to eat a Big Mac. Ever seen a cow or pig or chicken get slaughtered? It's not a pretty sight! We treat those animals worse than those Taiji fishermen ever thought about doing to those poor dolphin.)
Of course, he wants to paint the most horrific picture possible concerning Japanese dolphin hunts to tug at your emotional heartstrings. That's the reason he starts with Taiji, and forgets about the tens of other places that dolphin are taken around the world without all the bloodshed. It's not as sensational.
And if you are worried about the survivors of the Taiji hunt being your grinning swimming buddy on your next cruise, don't worry about it. He doesn't tell you that the vast majority of the Taiji dolphin that are sold for the tourist trade go to Eastern sites. Most of you who read this board are going on cruises to the Caribbean. He doesn't tell you that almost all of the dolphin that are in swim-with programs in that area are caught off the Yucatan Peninsula and Cuba.
So, that's just for starters. Like I said, a propagandist with an extremist agenda.
We can get into the other misinformation like... the sound-bites about dolphin swimming in maddening circles, starvation, committing suicide, etc.,etc. at another time. Keep in mind that when you read a post from Dartoid you are getting suppressed evidence, half-truths, confusion of correlation and causation, "authority" arguments, and special pleadings--in short, propaganda!
Don't believe him! And, don't believe me!
If you are really concerned about TRUTH, check it out. Find some independent and unbiased sources of information--that leaves out Dartoid, O'Barry, and Sea Shepherd right off the bat. The information is there, you just gotta dig for it. Be a free-thinker!
caa...u made some really good points...lik i tried getting across to him about it before but i couldnt get the words on the tip of my tongue to come out. You said what i was trying to say. That makes a lot of sense. Like he makes it seem like thats the only place in the world and he uses horrifying descriptive words to make you disgusted with it. Its the way of life...and whether you do the "swim-with" programs or not theyre still going to kill them because people eat the meat. And getting 20 people or so to not do that excursion isnt gona have an impact on the industry--especially with the number of people that cruise.
Carnival Conquest: April 4th-11th 2004
Carnival Victory: April 20th-27th 2003
As with any issue, of course, there are two sides. In this case (the debate over dolphin freedom vs. dolphin captivity) they basically come down to those who believe one should not cause an animal pain and suffering, just because we have the ability to do so and those who, while they may support the former position, are either blind to the reality or more motivated by greed than their heart.
We agree, indeed very strongly, on one point however -- and I quote you, Caa. "If you are concerned about the TRUTH, check it out. Find some independent and unbiased sources of information. The information is there, you just gotta dig for it. Be a free-thinker.!"
This, more than anything else, is exactly what I have been saying throughout this thread. As you put it so well, "don't believe him! And don't believe me!"
As it happens, just this morning Sally Kestin of the Florida Sun-Sentinal began the first of a five-part "independent and unbiased" investigation of this very issue. I haven't even read the first part myself yet but I refer you to:
if you are interested. Caa is correct. There is a great deal more to the issue than time or space allow here. It is not a pretty picture.
As to the rest of your post, caa, and with all due respect, you have put words into my moth that weren't there. Read my posts again. I never mentioned Taiji -- my reference to the 22,000 dolphins killed was to the total taken, no less horrifically, than the 2,9000 slaughtered in Taiji. Not that 2,900 is an insignificant figure.
The real money in the Japanese dolphin kill, the money that sustains it, does not come (not any more) from dolphins as food. I did not condemn the Japanese, and would not condemn anyone, for their unique cultural beliefs. You are correct that the "vast majority" of the dolphins taken in Japan, that live, end up in entertainment facilities in Asia. But many do end up in the west as well. This past year, as perhaps you are aware (and didn't mention) there were representatives from western facilities at the Taiji kill.
At then end of the day though it doesn't really matter. Blood isn't necessarily what makes this so brutal. What makes it brutal, in the case of a dolphin, is the make -up of the dolphin. I think we would both agree that even in the "best" of scenarios, the dolphin don't just drop out of trees and into captive facilities.
What you term my "misinformation" as to swimming in maddening circles, starvation. committing suicide and so farth is far from misinformation -- and it only begins to scratch the surface of the horror the captive industry inflicts on sentient creatures.
This topic sounds rediculous to me. Do you also recommend we don't keep cats as pets because people in China eat them and we'll be supporting that? Sounds like the same idea to me.
I swam with dolphins but atleast I don't eat tunafish...some brands say dolphin free and some don't, what does that tell you?. Anyway, I figure I'll pay the whopping $100 to do tricks with dolphins and help the finance the trainers. This way they can afford more advanced equipment and facilities to take care of their dolphins. If we don't support them financially, their dolphins will simply have worse living conditions.
I don't know what goes on in Japan, but at Cozumel they protected the dolphins. They only had swims going every so often to make sure they weren't overworked. We also had to go through a long demonstration on how to interract with the dolphins--they explained what we could and could not touch. I'm hearing some of you say that dolphins are treated very poorly, and are very intelligent creatures with emotions and feelings. If this is true, wouldn't these dolphins get pissed and start attacking the trainers and tourists? The dolphins often made noises throughout the swim--they weren't sounds of painful cries, they were more like playful laughter. To me it seems like the dolphins have a great lifestyle. They get free food simply tossed in their mouthes, they are safe from preditors, they get plenty of company every day(both from strangers and from the trainers whom they have most likely grown attached to), they get checked often to make sure they aren't sick(or they are treated if they are sick) and they get to show off and feel like stars.
I encourage you: swim with dolphins, interract with them and keep them company, and enjoy one of God's most fascinating creations.
About a week ago (May 12) I offered to continue our discussion, unless it was specific to the proliferation of "swim-with" programs and the cruise industry's tacit support of that cruel business, off-line. I haven't heard from you. That offer still stands. Most fundamentally, what I champion is justice. Let me try, very briefly, to explain this as is relates to the dolphin freedom/captivity issue. I would think (I would hope) you would agree that women do not exist to serve men, blacks to serve whites, the poor to serve the rich, or the weak to serve the strong. My philosophy, when it comes to the issue I raised in my very first post, accepts these truths and insists upon them. When an injustice is absolute one must oppose it absolutely. It was not "reformed" slavery that justice demanded, not "reformed" child labor, not "reformed" subjugation of women. In each of these cases, abolition was the only moral answer. Merely to reform injustice is to prolong injustice. My view is that what is being done to dolphins, regardless of it's "fun" and "humane" appearance, is inherently cruel and horrific. My advice to you has been to educate yourself on both sides of the dolphin freedom/captivity issue (or any issue, for that matter, if you wish to be respected for your thinking and, perhaps, even persuade others to adopt your point of view) and to, then, set what you learn alongside your own value system and take an informed position. That's what "Caa" has done and what KevinS is trying to do (though his "facts" are wrong and his logic is thoroughly convoluted). Caa and KevinS and I may not share the same views (Caa thinks my views are extremist -- and that's entirely fine) but at least their positions have to be respected for having been reached through some sort of rational, intelligent process. Quite to the opposite extreme, Lindsey has absolutely nothing to say but posts anyway. It's puzzling. Cruiseguy, I'm more than happy to have a discussion with you but only if you're sincere about wanting to explore and try to understand a different way of looking at certain things.