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  #61 (permalink)  
Old May 18th, 2004, 10:52 AM
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Yeoman
 
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Dartoid, you did'nt answer the question. Have you ever been on a cruise? I think we ALL would like to hear that answer.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old May 18th, 2004, 11:13 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Cruiseguy... sorry, I overlooked that part of your question -- not that it has anything to do with anything. Quite honestly, you'd be quite surprised, I think, how close I am to some in the cruise industry. Will be on the Carnival Miracle Cruise to Nowhere, leaving from Tampa on November 5. You should come along. You might learn something.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old May 18th, 2004, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

thanks dartoid

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  #64 (permalink)  
Old May 18th, 2004, 10:51 PM
caa
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

<< you have put words into my moth that weren't there. I never mentioned Taiji -- my reference to the 22,000 dolphins killed was to the total taken, >>

Dartoid--

Excuse, me, but I am taking your statistics as you say them. If it's not Taiji, then please tell us where the other 20,500 dolphins are being killed in the manner you described? PLEASE DOCUMENT FOR US WHERE THEY ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED.

--The 22,000 figure that you guys like to throw around as being factual is nothing more than the TOTAL ALLOWABLE LICENSED by the Japanese government to be hunted. There is NO WHERE NEAR that number being taken!

--The ONLY place in recent history that I can find where Dolphin are being hunted in Japan as you describe is SPECIFICALLY in Taiji, Japan. So, where else?

<<no less horrifically, than the 2,9000 slaughtered in Taiji. Not that 2,900 is an insignificant figure.>>

And it's not 2,900. That, again, is the ALLOWABLE. The actual number is less than 1,500, and declining EVERY YEAR.

<<At then end of the day though it doesn't really matter. Blood isn't necessarily what makes this so brutal. >>

It doesn't matter? It doesn't matter that in the very first post you wrote on this thread that you were telling STRAIGHT-UP LIES?

Then you followed it up in the next post by reinforcing your B.S. by saying:

"This is what you might call "common uncommon" knowledge but entirely factual, in every single detail."

If it is ENTIRELY FACTUAL--then you should be able to easily document!

And if blood isn't necessarily what makes this so brutal, why is it that virtually EVERY website of your ilk starts out talking about TAIJI? (Including seashepherd.org that you referenced).

The POINT is to make it as BRUTAL, as BLOODY, as VICIOUS, as you wackos can possibly make it. And if it means LYING, MANIPULATING, and SUPPRESSING EVIDENCE--you guys are ALL FOR IT!

You ought to be ashamed!

I'll be waiting for your documentation of the other 20,500 dolphin that you say are killed in Japan every year...

PUT UP or SHUT UP!
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old May 19th, 2004, 08:18 AM
Twirler
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Tell em caa!
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old May 19th, 2004, 08:40 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Caa...

Let me begin by saying that I have nothing but respect for your right to your position on all of this and to voice it. As I have written previously, I also wholeheartedly support your view that people should be free-thinkers and seek independent and unbiased information before reaching a decision on an issue. The last thing I am going to do is call you a "wacko" or an "extremist" -- or denegrate your way of thinking as "BS or "outright lies." We don't see eye-to-eye. Fair enough.

You are however, seriously misinformed. Nearly 700,000 dolphins have been killed by the Japanese since 1963. This year permits, by the government of Japan, were issued for the killing of 21,775 dolphins and by many accounts more than that were actually killed. Eight states allow the killing -- where dolphins are killied by harpoon and netting at sea (so they die excrutiatingly painful deaths). Two states, Wakayama (where Taiji is located) and Shizuoka, allow coastal hunts, as described in my first post., in many small villages. Taiji is hardly the only incidence of Japanese dolphin killing. You are correct, and I apologize, for stating in my first post, that the total number killed were all killed in the manner described. My intent was certainly not to deceive.

I've written before and I'll emphatically state again, my view (and I would like to believe, it's a view any caring human being would consider at least a little less than "wacko" or "extremist") is that blood is not necessarily what makes this entire thing so brutal anyway -- not that the savagedry of the Taiji hunt isn't about as barbaric as it gets. You tell me what's better: to harpoon a dolphin and watch it twist and turn a suffer for a considerable length of time before drowning or netting a dolphin and watching it thrust and squeel and jump and fight in every possible attempt to escape and return to its family before suffocating in sea water? Then tell me what's worse: to do either to 10 dolphins, or 100 dolphins or 1,500 or 22,000?

There's not an ethicist anywhere in the world that will tell you anything other than that, in the examples above, neither is "worse." To kill is to kill. Only to cause pain and suffering to a self-aware being and then indefinitely prolong that suffering for years (which is exactly what the "swim-with" programs do, can argueably be considered worse.

The reason so many web sites you click to begin with graphic descriptions of what really happens should be obvious. To hop in a pool or small lagoon and "play" with a creature that "giggles" and "smiles" and takes you for rides seems like wonderful fun. Most people who participate in this activity have absolutely no idea whatsoever how their "playmates" got there. Of course, they don't all come from Japan. By the same token there surely isn't a long waiting line of dolphins just itching to get in.

Most people who visit "swim with" facilities have no comprehension of dolphin physiology or natural behavior. They have no idea of their true intelligence, ability to recognize themselves, or their social structure. They simply are unaware that in their innocence they are actually helping to grow a despicable business. Organizations that post the "other side of the story" along with photographs simply have to in order to capture the attention of those who just plain don't realize that there is an issue here.

The cruise industry should not promote "swim with" programs.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old May 19th, 2004, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

caa why don't you put up or shut up . I think Dartoid has done an honest job of expressing an issue. He never asked you to agree just to educate and I believe his imformation to be valid. Did you even read what that O.Barry guy posted?
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old May 19th, 2004, 12:26 PM
KevinS
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Default Re: Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

"why don't you put up or shut up . I think Dartoid has done an honest job of expressing an issue. He never asked you to agree just to educate and I believe his imformation to be valid. Did you even read what that O.Barry guy posted?"

He never asked to agree, just to educate? Look at the title of his topic. He is trying to tell people what to do. Some of us are just basically telling these kids that if they want to swim with dolphins and enjoy a once in a lifetime experience, it wont hurt them like Dartoid has suggested.
Dartoid, the part in parenthesis after my name in your previous response suggests that my facts were wrong and my logic is not right. Firstly, I never included any facts because, unlike you, I don't surf the net gathering facts from perhaps bogus articles whipped up by some "save the whales" clan member. I would also like to hear how my statements used invalid logic. You never really explained why I was wrong, you appeared to just used big words in a kids forum so no one would question your intelligence. I simply expressed my views on what happened at the dolphin swim I took part in. You continue to point out what happens in Japan. I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that no one reading this is cruising to Japan to swim with their tortured dolphins. I have no idea what goes on in Japan or anywhere else but Cozumel, Mexico. Given that, I previously explained why I think it is okay to support that dolphin swim.
You describe how the dolphins have such terrible lives, being caught in a net and having to live in a small area. I agree that this can seem like a bad thing. However, there are other possibilities here. Do you suggest that it is wrong to shoot a net over a duck in order to capture it and remove a fishing hook from it's bleeding neck? Perhaps these dolphins were injured or maybe something happened to their mothers and they were on their own. What if, after years of nursing the dolphin back to health they decide that it could not live on its own in the big ocean. After all this nursing the dolphin would be adapted to human interraction. If it can't successfully live on its own then why not continue taking care of it? Is it wrong for zoos to profit from people observing their animals? They are taking care of injured animals but they must have used nets or tranqualizer darts to take the animal in.
I am not trying to say that this is the story of all dolphins in the swims. I am just saying that there are other possibilities than what is apparantly going on in Japan. The situation could be much worse--these people could be raising dolphins simply to slaughter and eat them, as is done with pigs, cows, etc. on farms all across America. I think that until you actually go to some dolphin swims and investigate--figure out how they aquired their dolphins and how well they are being treated, you shouldn't tell these kids that they're bad people if they swim with dolphins.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old May 19th, 2004, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Caa,
you didn't answer the question, did you read the post of OBarry, he too like Dartoid expressed knowlegable, first hand imformation on Dolphin swims. I don't feel like I've been told here what to do or not to do BUT rather educated on the history and background of dolphins. Too me it sounds pretty clear, do you just not understand, or maybe feel a bit quility. I know that maybe a few can't make a dramatic change but I do think both Dartoid and O'Barry have given us some real imformation.True imformation!
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old May 19th, 2004, 01:56 PM
Dartoid
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Hey KevinS...

I said it before and I'll say it again, whether we agree or not -- quite unlike Twirler who seems to just post for the sake of posting -- I give you all the credit in the world for the thought you are putting into this. Honest I do.

That said, your logic was flawed in your earlier post for a few reasons. First, there's no relationship bewteen "not keeping cats as pets because people in China eat them" and the dolphin freedom/captivity issue. Not keeping a cat as a pet will have no bearing whatsoever on what people in China do to cats (and by the way, it is dogs that are eaten in China; eating cats is extremely rare). Quite to the contrary, there is a direct relationship between dolphin killing and capture, whether it is in China or off the coasts of Cuba and Florida or elsewhere. That is because there is BIG money involved. Not frequenting "swim with" programs -- that are proliferating at an alarming rate in the caribbean and in Asia -- will have a direct and positive impact for dolphins in the wild. If the demand to swim with them decreases there will be a reduced "need" destroy their lives.

Second, you suggest that income earned from the "swim with" programs will afford the facility owners the ability to purchase more advanced equipment, build better facilities and take better care of the dolphins. Interseting thought process but -- there simply is and will never be the technology, super-sized tank, special equipment of some kind that will make it possible to obviate the cruel and inhumane reality that IS the result of wrenching a wild, thinking, highly social animal that is used to swiming great distances, communicating with close family and fending for its own food and condemning to a small, confined area and starving it to make it perform -- so some other animal (man) can make a few bucks.

Why, you pose, if dolphins in captivity are so unhappy, do they not "get pissed and start attacking trainers and tourists?" Your question is interesting and, again, I give you credit for the thought you're putting into this. The answer is all about intelligence and food. The dolphins you see in such facilities are far from "real" dolphins anymore -- not that they are vicious in the wild. Very generally speaking, the higher the level of intelligence of an animal the less likely it is to, as you put it, "get pissed off and attack" and the more likely it is to act, well, human-like. Not that man is necessarily a very supportive example of this train of thought!

Study, elephants. Study chimpansees. Literally everything a dolphin in captivity does it does for one and only one reason: food. Captive dolphins have learned that to survive where thay have been confined they have just one choice: do the trick, make the clicks, take the human for a ride or they won't have a fish put in their mouth. Dolphins in captivity act as they do simply and solely because they have been starved to do it. Throw a live fish into one of the tanks and you'll quickly see. The dolphins no longer have the ability to survive -- they can't chase the fish down and catch it. Not any more.

You suggest it's all quite idyllic -- the dolphins have free food dropped in their mouths; they are safe from predators; they have plenty of company; they can show off and feel like stars. To the extent I haven't already responded to most of this let me just point out the obvious: the greatest threat (predator) to a dolphin is the human who took him form the wild, caged him, and starved him to make him perform unatural acts. You're thinking is good, KevinS; you've just got it upside down.

If you want to enjoy "one of God's most facinating creations" by all means do it. But do it by watching off the side of your cruise ship. Don't for a moment think that what you are seeing in a captive situation is the real deal. These dolphins are far from it. They are nothing but miserable shadows of their former selves.

KevinS, you have raised some other issues and by not addressing them now I do not mean to avoid them or ignore them. We can come back to them if you wish. Let me just say -- to anyone who has been following this thread -- I did not and do not mean to call or imply that people who buy a ticket and partake in a program such as you did in Cozumel , are "bad people." Those who enter these places are, for the most part, just unaware of the "rest of the story".
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old May 19th, 2004, 04:46 PM
KevinS
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

I respect your input, too, Dartoid because you obviously are only doing this out of concern for the animals. You do make several good points and put a lot of thought in your response, but I am not going to respond to those unless you want to talk on aol or something. I am not going to make a big response this time, more of a wrap-up and then I'll let other people argue with you
My main argument, though I got off track a little, was supposed to be that trying to get teens to avoid the dolphin swim on their cruise might not be completely appropriate. Again, I understand you're trying to inform people because you are concerned about what is happening to dolphins. However, I don't think that simply asking people not to participate in this excursion is the answer. The article pasted earlier about the trainers buying dolphins from Japanese whalers didn't even suggest anything this extreme. The article said "ONE VOICE is hereby calling on captive dolphin facilities worldwide to change their policy and stop supporting and participating in the inhumane practice of the Japanese dolphin drives."
I think you should take up your case with the dolphin facilities rather than the people reading the teen member boards of cruisemates.com. You are free to express your beliefs but I think the dolphin facilities, or maybe animal rights groups, should be the ones who hear your concerns.
Goodluck with your cause, Dartoid, though I still would recommend to dolphin lovers that they do participate in a swim. After reading this thread, however, I might ask the facilities some questions before participating. I think Dartoid has done a good job of raising awareness; I just think he has gone a little extreme in doing it.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old May 19th, 2004, 07:16 PM
stuff&things
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Well, our family swam with them in the wild and it was great! One of the best things we've ever done. So I say swim with them - in the wild!

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  #73 (permalink)  
Old May 20th, 2004, 09:28 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Thanks KevinS...

I'll also keep it short, except to say that, my thinking anyway, it that it's a long-shot to expect some place that's netting a million dollars or more a year (and that's roughly what the Caribbean "swim with" facilities are doing) to say "okay, I shouldn't be doing this" when they're making such a good living off of the thing. It seems to me that the way to get them to pay attention AND at the same time have an impact on the killers/capturers on the other side, wherever they are plying their nasty trade, it to inform the consumers -- those who are buying the tickets. So, back to the beginning, the cruise industry could conceivably have quite an impact if they were to take a decision not to promote the programs. Sadly, there appears to be money in it for the cruise industry too though -- yesterday's Sun-Sentinel series reported that several of the cruise companies are recieving payments from the "swim with" facilities for sending people their way.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old May 21st, 2004, 09:40 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

I must say I am compelled to note, Caa -- after you essentially called me a "lying, manipulating, half-truth telling, evidence-suppressing, confuser of correlation and causation, extremist wacko propagandist" and, then, challenged me to "put up or shut up" -- I am not really surprised that you have disappeared.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old May 24th, 2004, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Dartoid, I just returned from a cruise yesterday (left on the 18th), anyway in answer to your question about joining and learning somthing on your cruise. Learn what? I have more time on a ship elevator then you have on a cruise, but so what. I know you asked me to further the discussion via e-mail, are you kidding? I would be plummeted with e-mail from every one of your friends that ever had a cause to champion, green peace, save the whales and all the other extreamist nature groups.

We have nothing to discuss openly or privately, you have your opinions and I have mine. All the discussion in the world would not change your way of thinking and most certainly would not change mine. Let it go with me before this really gets out of hand.
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old May 24th, 2004, 09:57 PM
runnergal
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

i think everyone here is going way too far with this whole debate. obiously some ppl are gonna agree w/ Dartoid, and others are not. You guys have been on this subject for almost a month. please stop fighting, lets start a new topic.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old May 25th, 2004, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

runnergal, your right, lets put this to bed and move on. IF Dartoid agrees. Enough is enough.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old May 25th, 2004, 08:33 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Cruiseguy...

With all due respect, I didn't "ask you" to further the discussion online or offline. What I did was offer to continue the discussion with you -- if you were sincerely interested in doing so.

Unlike others (whether they and I agree or not) who have posted intelligent, well-considered thoughts here, your tendency has just been to attack as "cults" or "religious zealots" or "extremists" those who, for whatever reason (which you seem unwilling or unable to articulate) you don't agree.

You're wasting your mind Cruiseguy.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old May 25th, 2004, 05:54 PM
BanjoBob
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

hmmm mabe the zoo dolphins are happy nice clean water to swim in dont have to hunt for food
get attension and have fun with the ummm well whatever i just think they like it
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old May 26th, 2004, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

I knew dartoid could'nt let it go, he's just another bump in the road. DARTOID, LET IT GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old May 26th, 2004, 10:51 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

You embarass yourself everytime you post, Cruiseguy. You don't read and respond thoughtfully. Unlike Dan Polulak, who hosts this site -- who oozes maturity and seems to research and think before he writes (and who can write DAMN) you just pound drivil into your keyboard. Your mind would be better put to use in the discussion about SexyBrunette's prom dress. One would think you would at least aspire to more...
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old May 26th, 2004, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

OOOOOOKAY, dartboy. You would'nt leave it alone. Here are some points to ponder.

1. I was going to challenge you to a battle of the minds but then I remembered, I don't fight un-armed people.

2. You DID indeed ask me to communicate with you via e-mail. Refer to your posts of 5-12 AND 5-18.

3. You asked me what does your travels on a cruiseline have to do with anything? Please refer to a different post of yours on 5-18. What does it have to do with anything? Well DUH, this is a cruisemates board dedicated to cruising.

4. You banter with anyone who won't conform to your thinking (if we can call it that). You have tunnel vision and a very closed mind.

5. I offered to give this thread up but you seem to want to continue the slams, or is it you just want the last word.

6. If you are willing, I will stop this bantering if you will, fair enough? We can end it all with this post. Otherwise we will continue this for hundreds of posts, not a good thing.

P.S. If any other readers go back to read the posts that I am referring to and there his comments are not there, its because HE deleted them.

P.S.S. If any other readers are interested in any of his other posts go to the top of this page, hit search, when the next window appears just put in his name. Then click all forums. you will see that he has never posted on an adult thread and has never talked about cruiseing (unless you consider, somehow, that his posts are cruise related). You be the judge.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old May 27th, 2004, 01:43 AM
caa
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

<<I am not really surprised that you have disappeared.>>

Sorry to disappoint, Dartoid, I haven't disappeared. Just don't have time to camp out on this board as you do. Been out of town, but now I'm back to share some truth.


<< My intent was certainly not to deceive.>>

Of course it was. Your point was to establish a cause/effect relationship between the Japanese coastal dolphin kills and the swim-with programs in the Caribbean. If just one kid that read your post woke up with a screaming nightmare, feeling in some way responsible for a Japanese culinary custom that goes back hundreds of years, you would feel totally justified in your word picture. How shameful.

Again, just to review the TRUTH...

--There is NO relationship between the coastal hunts you described and what goes in a swim-with program.
--The Japanese will eat their dolphin REGARDLESS of what few wind up as "living dead" (snicker), which means...

They will continue to hack dolphin, harpoon dolphin, behead dolphin, slaughter dolphin, and bloody the water with dolphin blood whether any of those dolphin go to a swim-with program or not. They do it because the LIKE TO EAT THEM. PERIOD.

The number of dolphin taken in coastal hunts in Taiji is estimated to be 1,500 (and declining). I will factor in Shizuoka only grudgingly because many fishermen there have totally given up hunting dolphin, BUT, the state allowable there is 600. So, that is approximately 2,100 dolphin hunted in coastal waters in the manner you describe. Perhaps 1 or 2% of those in the coastal hunts wind up in a swim-with program. IF we agree that 22,000 (or more) dolphin are taken totally in Japan (meaning that the vast majority are taken at sea), then it would be logical to conclude that the overwhelming majority of dolphin harvested each year are going to somebody's dinner table. Do you really believe that 50 or 60 dolphin going to a swim-with program out of 22,000 are supporting an entire fishing industry? And that if it weren't for the negligible number of dolphin going into captivity, that the entire "barbaric" process would somehow go away? PULEEEEZE...

BTW, you forgot to mention to the folks that the vast majority of dolphin taken in Japan are NOT the bottle-nosed variety (which is what winds up in the swim-with programs). How convenient.


<<You tell me what's better: to harpoon a dolphin and watch it twist and turn a suffer for a considerable length of time before drowning or netting a dolphin and watching it thrust and squeel and jump and fight in every possible attempt to escape and return to its family before suffocating in sea water? Then tell me what's worse: to do either to 10 dolphins, or 100 dolphins or 1,500 or 22,000?>>

I dunno. Perhaps you should take it up with the Japanese.

Maybe we could offer them instead a glass of milk from one of our dairy cows--whose udders are constantly kept 2-1/2 times their normal size, that distorts their backs and pelvis area so that they can hardly walk, and are prematurely slaughtered after 3 years because of diseases associated with being loaded up on hormones, and confined to hard, concrete floors. Or perhaps we could offer them a loaf of bread--made from grain that was harvested at the expense of literally millions of free-roaming range animals (squirrel, racoon, fox, rabbit, quail, etc.) every year that get chewed up slowly and painfully in the farmer's combines. Or perhaps we could offer them a Big Mac made with beef from the slaughter houses where... well, you likely don't want me to go there). Quite frankly, I think your Western prejudices are showing.

The point is you are promoting a lie, somewhat elaborately, and it has been exposed. And the problem for us is that it makes just about everything else you say somewhat suspect. Credibilty, Dartoid, is what you are lacking at this point.


<<The reason so many web sites you click to begin with graphic descriptions of what really happens should be obvious. To hop in a pool or small lagoon and "play" with a creature that "giggles" and "smiles" and takes you for rides seems like wonderful fun. Most people who participate in this activity have absolutely no idea whatsoever how their "playmates" got there. Of course, they don't all come from Japan. .>>

Thank you. Then you must surely agree with me that you have lied.

BTW, I will take a W.A.G. that NONE of the Caribbean dolphin programs get their stock from Japan (as if it mattered). If you can document where any of the Cozumel dolphin come from Taiji or Futo, then please do so. I can't. Please, no more unsubstantiated and undocumented "facts". You have yet to "put up". I'm still waiting...
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old May 27th, 2004, 06:49 AM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Cruise kid, I think Dartoids post is definetly cruise related. It has to do with the excusions many of us choose to spend our money on while in ports. If you can't realize that ,then how could you even begin to understand the points he is just trying to share with us.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old May 27th, 2004, 07:37 AM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Caa. once again I'll ask...Have you read O'Barrys post here. I see your attacks on Dartoid, however he has only given us imformation to consider so Did O'barry. Near the bottom of his post "If the dolphin captivity industry was not fueling the dolphin slaughter by buying dolphins from the Japanese dolphin drives, the dolphin slaughter would have a very hard time surviving," says Muriel Arnal, ONE VOICE Founder/Director. I think you need to consider that its NOT just one person here sharing their views but others too with useful imformation to share.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old May 27th, 2004, 08:51 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Two quickies here...

Cruiseguy: We are agreed. I have no more desire to "banter" with you. There's no point in it. You're not intellectually equipped for this. Flail away if you wish. Whatever. Your wish is granted. You'll see nothing further from me in response to your weak-sister ramblings.

Caa: I'm not the least bit disappointed that you're back. I'm delighted. I've agreed with you from the beginning that people should seek informed and unbiased information on both sides of the issue and then form their own opinion.

I admit to bias. I would think you would as well. But that should not necessarily detract from the value to be gained by someone following our discussion, provided our arguements are not knowingly based on falty information. Mine have certainly not been. Where I have been in error and you have pointed it out I have admitted the error. You have done the same (as with Shizuoka).

Your post is excellent. IFor now let me just clarify one point. I did not set out to establish a cause/effect relationship between the Japanese coastal dolphin kills and the swim-with programs in JUST the Caribbean. Hardly.

I set out to define the horror of dolphin killing and capture and draw a relationship between the largely unknown and hidden, and generally very sad and often gruesome, "front end" of the story that the captive industry doesn't want people to know
-- regardless of where the dolphins end up.

I then set out to share the reality of the dolphin experience once its in a captive environment.

Finally I have argued that both ends of the horror are linked due to basic economics -- money -- and driven by supply and demand. And that it can be stopped if enough people take the decision to to simply say "no" and not purchase tickets to captive display facilities.

I am not promoting a lie.

I am simply articulating a reality that some people don't like to hear but which anyone who participates in a swim-with program anywhere in the world should consider.

I just don't accept that a self-aware, highly intelligent, extremely social animal should be beaten or netted or in any way taken from it's natural environment and then caged to swim in lonely, maddening circles and starved to perform tricks, ostensibly for entertainment or "conservation education" -- all so fishermen on the one end and the captive industry on the other can make money of of kids who don't know the truth.

THAT is my bias. I'm certainly not going to apologize for it.

Caa, you've raised other issues that I will react to in due course. Stay tuned.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old May 27th, 2004, 02:06 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Dartoid, thank you. From one mental midgit to another.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old May 27th, 2004, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

I have a cause I wish to champion. Its the cause for the Northern Siberian Yellow Bellied Sapsucker. Although there small, there very tasty. The siberians have been killing them for years by the millions (it takes a lot to make even a small meal). As a result the flocks are getting smaller. One article I read on the subject (and it must be true because it came from Russia) said that in 100 years this massive killing will deplete Siberia from one of its most important national treasures. So to prevent this they have captured thousands of these birds and sent them to the Moscow zoos where the are placed in very small cages that have no room for them to fly much less procreate. The Russians hold back food and water to the birds to make them mate. A full 90% die from self inflicted wounds due to the poor living conditions and terrible treatment by their keepers. We believe that Russia should ban the useless slaughter of these beautiful, intelligent birds so their National heritage may live for all eternity. The people in Siberia will just need to find another source of protein. Perhaps the Brown Spotted Pygmy Armanian Fly Catcher (but thats another story). Our group. the STNSYBSS (save the nothern siberian yellow bellied sapsucker society) would like to ask anyone to who travels to Moscow to boycott the Moscow Zoo for it s in-humane treatment of a truley valued treasure. Please also discontinue any travel plans to Siberia as this is the main cause of the depletion of the Northern Siberian Yellow Bellied Sapsucker. Go ahead and visit southern Siberia as these birds only live in northern Siberia (but they do eat the Green Breasted Oriental Scarlet Pimpernel). Ugh!! How revolting.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old May 27th, 2004, 06:03 PM
caa
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Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

<<Caa. once again I'll ask...Have you read O'Barrys post here.>>

Yes. And? Am I supposed to be impressed, mikey?

O'Barry is the Grand Poobah of propaganda in this affair. And a media slut, to boot.

To repeat, Dartoid, O'Barry and their ilk are not reliable sources of TRUTH. They have an AGENDA. They want to see social change according to their PREJUDICED WORLD VIEW in a specific, focused cause. They are so committed to their cause that they will SAY and DO just about ANYTHING to see their view adopted.

O'Barry and Dartoid's information is NOT useful if it is not the truth.

You need to mature enough to figure out when you are getting B.S. Do you always believe in TV commercials? Do you always believe in what a politician says in a speech? Of course not! Then why should you believe what an ANONYMOUS POSTER tells you as "fact" on a chat board?

When you read posts that are full of short little sound-bites, "authority" arguments (O'Barry - snicker), and special emotional pleadings that tug at your heart strings--you are likely being manipulated by PROPAGANDA!

BTW, here is an article about the famous Flipper master himself:

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/.../feature2.html

After you read that, you may understand why I'm not too impressed that O'Barry backs up Dartoid's "useful information". There is much more that we could discuss about O'Barry, but that is another discussion. Suffice it to say that his "information" is suspect, at best.

Be a FREE - THINKER.

Consider that there are almost always TWO SIDES to any discussion.

Examine, and then verify.
Examine, and then verify.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old May 27th, 2004, 10:58 PM
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8
Default Re: DO NOT Swim with Dolphins!!!

Caa,
I took up your suggestion and read the news article. Your completely right there is two sides to every story.
The last two sentences of that writing really said it all .. The dolphins were never the problem. The only problem was the people. I agree, if people were to allow the dolphin to live a normal life, not train them to entertain they would be better off.

I also feel that Trout and Good seemed like dishonest men and now feel that O'Barry is extremely passisonate about his cause which I agree lead him to make some extreme choices. I believe Dartoid is still only trying to share imformation and like you who has offered another view on the dolphin issue. I believe that it would be wise for others to read that also so they can see to what extent some will go to free the dolphins.
Thanks for opening my eyes even wider to the cause of the dolphins and their need to be free.
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