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  #31 (permalink)  
Old August 1st, 2008, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ready2board
Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
Ready2board I agree with you that if you overpay for art on a cruiseship because you didn't know do your research that on you. However, if you buy a bottle of wine and go to drink it but the wine turns out to be vinegar that was mislabeled to trick you into buy it that is another issue al together. The Salvador Dal√* prints with a pencil signature are fakes.

This is from an article about park west in the NY times. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/ar...gewanted=print
‚ÄúSince Dal√* did not sign any of these prints in black pencil, a pencil signature on one must be a forgery,‚ÄĚ Mr. Field wrote.
Here is an interesting article about how the fake Dal√* prints came into being. http://www.fineartregistry.com/artic...i-parkwest.php
Kat...I see your point. But most people are ordering low quality wine to begin with and seem to love it usually. It's always fun to watch them order the "white zinfandel", taste it, and tell everyone at the table how nice it is lol. White zin is the most bottom of the barrel (no pun) stuff that wineries put out yet they make huge money from it. Winemakers jokingly call it Chateu Cashflow! It's the same quality, generally, as "ripple", Thunderbird etc...BUT it's presented nicely in a pretty bottle so people think they are getting something great. Also, most American wines are meant to be consumed once they are on the market and not aged for a long time like alot of French wines etc. So I also always get a kick how somebody at the table, pretending to be a wine snob, asks the waiter how long the white zin has been aged for lol. It's actually rare to get a bad bottle of American made wine unless it's been exposed to tremendous heat or something at some point.

I just couldn't help but see the similarities in how people look at art and wine. Put it in the right environment, make a big fuss about how it's presented and most will think it's top quality stuff.
The american wines turn out so well because the wineries taste the sugar and Tartaric Acid content.

My dad make homemade wine I have a brix refractometer to measure the sugar level in my white wine grapes when they are at between 17-22 brix (this is higher in red wine grapes) and is in the near the range of tartaric acid 6.5 to 7.5 grams I will pick them We have had a lot of fires in this area and there is a concern the smoke will infuse into the grapes and ruin the wine.

So that is other comparsion I will make if the fires gives the wine a burned favor the winery won't sell it cause it's bad wine. However, Park West is selling ruined white zinfandel and claiming it's good white zinfandel. Then not letting you return the wine after you discover it's ruined. Park West still has the “Divine Comedy" Dali prints on their website. I wonder if this one is real? http://sales.parkwestgallery.com/col...=75&the_page=2
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Old August 1st, 2008, 06:02 PM
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Now just cause I wonder this Purgatory 14 is selling on another website "unsigned" and framed for $349.00. If the signuture on the other print is real it would be worth quite a bit more. However, I could just buy this one sign it myself and hang it on my wall who would know?
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Old August 1st, 2008, 06:36 PM
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katlady and all:

I read the second link you posted to the Fine Art Registry interview with a true Dali expert, and find that the problem with Park West is worse than I had found it from reading the NYT article. I recommend all who view this thread go to that link and read it.

Added to this, one of the best lines I ever cruised (Regent) has changed to Park West since I last cruised with them, and is reportedly using PW's auction art as wall decor! Regent has a reputation for being a "class act", which I can see fading quickly if they continue their relationship with PW. Another line I really like (Silversea) discontinued art auctions a few years back, based on guests' comments negative to them. And their art auction contractor wasn't even PW!

After reading the FAR link, I don't think I will cruise a line that uses PW. The word is out now, so the line can't claim ignorance. I feel if the line is out to get me in their art auction, where else may they be out to get me?
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Old August 1st, 2008, 09:08 PM
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I am NO expert in Salvador Dali or any other artist. It is just my recollection from writing the article that some of the prints were signed in black pencil, so color of pencil alone is not an indicator. I also recall that truee Dali prints were signed "in the block" meaming he put his name within the work of art itself, it was usually in a box and just said "Dali" usually bottom-center. Then he also signed the print.

A true limited edition should have both the block print and the pencil signature. Part of the problem claimed to have been seen by Dali experts contesting the PW Dali authenticity is that all the signatures look exactly the same, which would never happen with the artist because his signature was a scribble that he did as fast as he could. They should all look wildly different. Some people's signatures vary more than other's, but they all vary.

I agree, I started finding these auctions intrusive about four or five years ago when it became just obvious that they were trying to claim these pieces were worth some $20,000 apiece. I thought "who on earth would be crazy enough to buy anything at that price on a cruise ship with no ability to get an impartial opinion, consult catalogs, etc. I didn't have to "know" anything, it just felt wrong. And sure enough, there is a lot of evidence indicating they are wrong - and I am not surprised.
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Old February 19th, 2009, 03:36 PM
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Art auctions aboard a ship---you must be kidding me!! These venues are shore retail outlets moved to a ship. The word "art" is used very loosely. The cruise lines make money on this activity so we can't expect it to go away. I am still looking for the ship that has "tupperware" or "Watkins Products", "Victoria Secrets" or some other type sales. Back to the Victoria Secrets, that would draw a lot of passenegrs---well maybe at least the males!!!!
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Old February 20th, 2009, 02:28 AM
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I just attended my first ever at sea "Art Auction". I went for the cheap free champagne, but I did begin to enjoy myself. There were a few pieces I would have loved to have. That was the first night or so. The last night, I won a raffle, number 165, I picked that number on purpose as I was born in 1965..but anyways, I "won". I made my appt to come back to pick out my peice of art, I had already scoped out what I wanted, a depressing print by some female artist. Anyways, I am sitting at my appt and she starts talking about about this and that while she is taking my info, and then tells me that I have to pay $35 to have it shipped to me. This was NOT a framed piece of artwork, it was to have been rolled up in a tube and dropped in the mail.

Look I was born at night, but it wasnt last night! I told her that it was suppose to be free, whereby she starts on this long drawn out sales pitch about how its shipped from Miami...ok...I sent my ex some of his art work and photos in the same kind of tube to Korea and it cost me about $12 total! And this was suppose to be comming from Miami to me here in Texas. Again I protest and she tells me that it says that it is not free, that the raffale was free. What? Ok whatever. So I decline my "win" and go about my business. That night I get this note from the Pursers desk to come there and clear up my account. I had already done that earlier in the day. So I go down there, and there is $35 on my S & S from the Art Auction - I have the paper to prove it! I tell the pursers desk that I did not want it and to remove the charge. They tell me that the auctioneer must do that and begin to page her. No luck. So the next AM which is disembarkation day, I have to go back down to the pursers desk and it took them about an hour to fix it. The auctioneer wanted to argue with me. She was like you dont understand....I was grumpy from the 2.30 am wake up call anyways, so I got pretty nasty and said NO I DONT THINK YOU UNDERSTAND...TAKE THIS CHARGE OFF MY ACCOUNT. KEEP YOUR ART AND I WILL BE ON MY WAY!....It was done about 15 minutes later.

So in the future I will avoid the art auctions. I was told that I did not read the bid card. But since I was NOT bidding then why would I read it. So if you go, make sure that you read every stinking thing they hand you.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 07:40 AM
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tbowman...

Your story really ticks me off!!! Please tell me what cruise line this was on so they can take action againt the art dealer. That is a SCAM without a doubt and they were hoping you woudn't see the charge. In addition, when you did see it the fact that the art auctioneer was unable to be found was yet another scam.

He wasted an hour of your valuable time. If you were paying $240/day (for example) to be on that cruise he owes YOU $20.

This is exactly the reason why we do not recommend people get involved with these art auctions at all. The majority of opinion of most cruisers is that ships would be better of without them.

Now, you have to realize the auctioneers are independent sellers. The Gallery itself has also engaged in questionable tactics in the past, but I believe thet attempted to clean up their act recently. But the tactics of your auctioneer spell out a rogue working on commission. How disgusting to take advantage of people that way. he figures he'll never see you again so good luck to you trying to get a refund. he was just hoping you would give up.

And you have to wonder how many other "prize winners" there were - 50?

Once again, I encourage everyone to read my article here: http://www.cruisemates.com/articles/...ons-071808.cfm about the scams this one auction house has done.

$35 for shipping is not unusual. Plus they charge it for each piece even if you buy five (and they are all rolled up into a tube). Plus there is a handling fee and an appraisal fee. In the end, if you had filled out the form to participate in the auction (which is in reality a credit card application) there is a good chance you would have gotten a bill for well over $100 for your "free prize."

I am sorry, but that is the LOWEST OF LOWS. N E V E R should any company charge anyone for anything they say is a free prize - unless at the very minimum it is disclosed before you even enter the contest.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 12:40 PM
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I'm afraid that the cruise line won't do anything to harm its "cash cow" -- the art auction. A supposed "lux line", Regent, recently got rid of ships' photographers so that the space they occupied could could instead be used by the art auction people. All this in spite of a number of fraud claims against the art auction contractor on that line.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 12:48 PM
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Babe - forunately that is not entirely accurate. Silversea eliminated art auctions completely. Celebrity Solstice broke with tradition and went with a different auctioneer who is not nearly so hard sell. (Millenium Gallery from FL)

Being candid the problem is not so much the auctions as it is the people running them.

By the way, go here for news about Park West being sued for fraud: In one case a man bought what his Park West receipt said was an original Chagall for several 1000 dollars. He took it our of the frame and turned it over and saw it came out of a magazine!!!

http://www.wxyz.com/mediacenter/loca...yz.dayport.com
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Old February 20th, 2009, 02:55 PM
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For me, going to an art auction is like watching paint dry.
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Old February 20th, 2009, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susierphillips
For me, going to an art auction is like watching paint dry.
I had never been to a true art auction before and I love art, so I thought this would be a good way to learn more about different artists. Little did I know that it was less about education and more about hard sales techniques. I was roped in after the first one, by the fact that I had entered the Guess the Price of the Picasso and wanted to see how close or far I was and went back to the last nights. Thats when I got too involved by winning a raffle. All I can say is please if you go to one of these, make sure you READ everything you give you, no matter if you are going to parcitpate in the bidding or not. I chose not to fill out the CC app as I am trying to get out of debt and not add to it. I am so glad that I declined my winnings and then found this thread.
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Old February 21st, 2009, 02:31 PM
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To me this whole "art auction" thing is like a remnant of the 70's, I dont understand why people still do it, dont understand why they buy unless they have money to burn.

People cannot be that thick that they cannot see it as just another way to get money out of you, and in this case for a very expensive, non art, no value and no bargain piece of crap.

Something that you could buy in any frame come print shop back home for a 1/10th of the cost, and dont need to ship it back.

Those that take part must only have money to burn and do it just for the "auction" buzz, they must know its crap. Maybe not crap as art, but crap in the money they shelved out for it,,,never to return again
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Old February 21st, 2009, 03:35 PM
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Park West just agreed to take all of their Salvidor Dalis off the ships. If you bought one I would contact Park West immediately for a refund. They are offering refunds now to people who bought one.
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Old February 21st, 2009, 03:39 PM
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It is also a way for people who could never afford certain artists' work to have something of theirs to hang in their homes....or offices. I used to go to a dermatologist whose entire office suite was filled with PW prints of a given artist. We chatted about it and he said that it was a lot cheaper than trying to decorate with the "real" stuff.
I stopped buying any PW when their prices went from "fun souvenir" to what they claim is investment art. It is not an investment in anything except decoration. When I could skip the tacky t-shirts, etc. and get something pretty as a reminder of a cruise, it was fun...not any more.
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Old February 22nd, 2009, 10:59 AM
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I have never bought art on a ship or anywhere else, but I enjoy watching a cable TV site called the American Auction Network (AAN) located in St Petersburg, Florida. They auction virtually everything, jewelry, land, foreclosed houses and art. All the art they sell is framed and there is no reserve or minimum bid on anything. I also enjoy watching ship auctions, but I feel sorry for a lot of the bidders.
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Old February 22nd, 2009, 01:57 PM
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We have noticed that their pricing has really gone up, on the 2008 cruise the price was like 3 times what the same price of art was on our 2007 cruise and they were getting really pushed you to buy with the pre auction sales. I always enjoyed them until the last cruise. We didn't buy anything and came home to our local artist in person and got more for a lot less. I may still watch the auctions because I enjoy art but no more buying.
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Old February 23rd, 2009, 01:15 PM
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look, face it. anyone who would buy 'art' on a cruise ship deserves what they get. ptbarnum had it right. if it were a significant work of art, it would be in a gallery on shore and protected from the elements, in the first place. second, it would not show up on multiple cruise ships. and on and on and on. caveat emptor. but i suppose the 'honey it would look so nice over the fireplace and go so well with the sofa' syndrome is still alive. i have no pity at all for those who are bilked. sorry.
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Old February 23rd, 2009, 01:36 PM
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PaulB

I'm looking for a third home and decided to make it the states, so if your watching TV and one of those "foreclosed houses " comes up for sale next door to you.

I'm your new neighbor 8)
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Old February 23rd, 2009, 02:36 PM
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When we have passed a display of framed "art" aboard many a ship (and how can anyone go anywhere without it being placed in your face) we did note a series of prints involving French restaurant waiters dressed in formal attire and in various activities as they served their customers . We thought that if we were to purchase anything it most probably would be one of those.

Surfing the net one day I came across an image of one of these very prints and so I downloaded it. It was large enough to permit quality printing and I placed it in a simple available frame. And with that I "bid" farewell...
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Old February 23rd, 2009, 02:53 PM
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David, I would love to have you as my next door neighbor, but none of the houses in my vicinity are being foreclosed. Perhaps the next time we have a recession.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 06:31 PM
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Art is subjective. I never buy on what I feel or think the value is - only if I really like the piece. I do plan to attend the auction, because I like looking at art, but I won't buy a piece on a ship. And THANK YOU to everyone for the forewarning. I would much rather be able to purchase local art, from local artist. Pots, rugs, paintings whatever.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Art Auctions!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne Campbell
I hate the way the cruise lines push you to attend art auctions, as if they're some special perk for passengers. Cruise lines get 50% of the revenue of these auctions, and Celebrity even built a special art auction hall on its ship. They should be more up-front about this kind of thing. And, the recommended stores they push to you visit also pay a kick back to the cruise line for listing them.
The art auctions and the shopping talks are not my thing.

I've never attended an art auction and have never been pushed to attend.

I attended one shopping talk to see what they were like and walked out after about 10 minutes. But, I wasn't pushed to attend.

I'm not interested in buying a coupon book and running around all the islands shopping at all the recommended stores and picking up the free trinkets.

I'm curious- why do you feel you were pushed to attend an art auction or shop in the recommended stores?
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Old July 7th, 2009, 11:14 AM
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Default Art Auctions

How can this art be really valuable when there are thousands and thousands of copies. Don't you like the way they call these things auctions? A $300 copy has a starting price of $150 then $160 and then SOLD. Or the very valuable print that retails for $4000 and we will start the bidding at $2500---OH!--no takers just take it down. About buying from a "ship approved" store. Great quality, great service and the lowest prices!!!!Oh yes!! I will have the Brooklyn Bridge for sale on eBay next week.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 02:07 AM
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I agree buying the over priced and over hyped art on a cruise is a perfect example of parting a fool and his money, but I do enjoy peruseing the art. Some of it is really good, some stinks but I'm not buying it so it's like going to an art museum. For those that really hate the auctions, just don't go.

I didn't realize the ships had 'talks' comcerning thier approved stores. I know they have deals and claim great prices at certain places in ports, but I have never bothered looking which stores were the ship stores. I don't buy a lot of trinkets when I'm on an excursion anyway.

Readytoboard, I personally know very little about wine. I do like the White Zinfindels. I find it sweeter than most other wines, which I consider too bitter for my taste. Maybe that makes me a yokel but so be it. I would rather buy and drink what I enjoy than buy and drink what impresses the wine snobs. I don't care if the wineries make money selling me what I like. That's what they are in business for and I'm a capitolist.
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