I have read so many posts on these boards that infer the rulebreakers, low-lifes, wild children, inconsiderate passengers, complainers, dress-code violators, etc. are the result of lower ticket prices. Why do so many people assume that there is a direct relationship between one's income and the amount of class they have? I've seen people with big bucks and not one drop of consideration for others, and families scraping to survive with more grace and compassion than money could ever buy. I would rather share my cruise with the latter, for though the are there only because they could finally afford it, they would have much more consideration for others than the big cheese in the largest suite. Class is learned, not earned. You get it from your roots, culture, and your heart. It has nothing to do with how much you paid for your ticket!
And that's all I have to say on the subject!
I agree, probably not a direct correlation. HOWEVER, cruisers HAVE changed over the years. For the worse. At the same time, cruising has become much less expensive (in nominal and real terms). Thus, the perceived correlation.
I also ask you to compare conduct on cruise lines as a relation to cost. There probably is a correlation. Only cruise lines I have sailed recently are RCI and Radisson. Although we have a small number of "snobs" or inconsiderate people on Radisson, I do strongly believe that is a lesser number than on RCI. People have been very considerate to each other on my Radisson cruises. You never notice dining room attire because no one stands out. We did have a loud table in the dining room the last night but that was abnormal, and also only one table.
I don't think you can make a good comparison on one ship by itself. There are a number of people with the "big fish, little pond" syndrome. They want to book the biggest suite on a mainstream line and let everyone know about it. They also want to let the crew know and they want the crew to treat them extra special at the expense of other pax. IIRC, NCL has some of the largest suites at sea. Why would someone book such a suite at such a cost when they can cruise cheaper on a luxury ship! They just want to be the big fish. This big fish phenomenon doesn't exist to the same level on luxury ships. There is less distinction. Thus, less inconsiderate behaviour, IMHO.
just my two cents (3 cents with inflation, or 10 cents canadian),
"The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."
F Scott Fitzgerald
Seven Seas Voyager (30nts) - Dubai - Cape Town - Nov 14
Good one Paul, but this is the forum for Cruise Gripes so that's ok, lol.
Mary, I agree with you. There was a poster on another topic that kind of insinuated that the price of the ticket could determine the interpretation of the dress code and I remarked that the price has nothing to do with it, it's the person. Yes I cruise as cheaply as I can but I am not in the category of the rulebreakers etc.
Since I have posted comments that might be construed as "less pay less class", allow me to say that on our cruise, we were among the lowest fares paid. But we recoginzed that we were going on a CRUISE, and part of the cruise experience is "formal night". My comments were not intended to "paint with a broad brush". But not all that long ago, cruising was something that was for the "elite". Then, a cruise was an "event" that those taking them planned for - this included dress codes. As cruises became much more affordable, more people who wouldn't have considered them are now opting for them. And you've seen the number of people who feel that "you can't tell ME how to dress" increase. I can't help but feel that there is some corelation there.
I guess it goes to the dropping of dress codes in general - less than 10 years ago, men wore a suit and tie to an office job. Then came casual Fridays, then came "business casual" five days a week. And I remember that after the first few "casual Friday's", a memo had to be sent out reminding employees that a T-shirt was not considered proper business attire. And even then, some found the memo insulting. As a society, we've gotten so "informalized" that we resent having to be "reminded" to dress up once in a while.
I know that when I take the wife and kids to a beach vacation, I don't pack a suit - I don't plan on taking the family to a "fine dining" place in the middle of a tourist beach. Now, you have a lot of people who used to go on beach vacations taking cruises - they've never packed a suit before by golly, and they're not going to do it now either. I doubt that there are very many first time cruisers who are going to book a suite for several thousand dollars per person. So, they opt for a vacation that is slightly more than the beach vacation, and are "upset" that they are being asked to observe a dress code - as I mentioned, every other area of their life has dropped a dress code, why should the cruise lines be the hold out. IMHO, the people booking the suites are pretty much cruise "veterans", and they know the dress code and expect to follow it.
I think another root of the problem might also be the good old internet. Websites cannot do half the job of a travel agent. The website shows the "best" price and one click and you bought yourself a cruise vacation. IMHO, first time cruisers, or those who prefer the more "leisure" cruises would be better off working with a travel agent rather then surfing the web for the best bargain. A travel agent most likely will be able to get them just as good, if not better, price for their vacation, and they can "coach" them on a cruise that may be more to their liking. For example, the internet might show them a Celebrity cruise for a great price and they book it, and end up resenting the cruise line for "requesting" formal dinner attire for a couple of nights. A good travel agent would find out if formal dining appealed to them, and if not, would most likely suggest an NCL "freestyle" cruise for them.
Bottom line, it isn't so much "class versus cash" as "informed versus uniformed". And regardless of how much or little one has spent on a cruise, when there are a thousand other "shipmates", it is VERY self centered to inflict your own personal whims on the rest of your shipmates when the vast majority KNEW there were formal nights and ACCEPTED that and planned accordingly.
i totally agree with Mary on the "class is learned not earned".("What would your mother say if she knew what you were doing?") Of course we all know that if the cruise lines botherd to enforce the rules of code, etiquette and conduct, none of this would occur.
Mary is correct IMHO and so is Paul. Class is a learned behaviour just as being informed is. Neither has anything to do with how much money they have, their social status, or their level of income. I disagree with Marc. I have had the opportunity in my life to mingle with both the very rich and the very poor and all levels inbetween and in many cases it is those that 'want' to be rich that are tasteless as wello as those that inheriteted their wealth and not those that worked for it. Some of the very nicest people I have meet and those with impeccable manners were some of the poorest in money, but still the richest in life.
I must agree with Mary. As far as the comment of not that long ago the cruising experience was different, to me it was not that long ago that cruising was a form of transportaion that catered to a class system. If you look at the class system there really were more 2nd and 3rd class passengers than 1st class. Yes 1st class passengers dressed up but what about the so called 3rd class. I am not talking about Titanic days I am talking about the days of the France, QE2, Independence that really wasn't that long ago that their main purpose was transportation across the ocean.
To me Class has nothing to do with money it is how you treat people and I have seen many people with or without money that do not have any class even when in formal clothes. I have also seen many that had a lot of class but it wasn't due to the clothes they were wearing.
Class indeed has NOTHING to do with money. There's are lots of people with money who are pure class and lots without money, who are pure class. Lots of people with money with no class, and lots of people without money, with no class.
It's my own opinion trying to categorize people for their lack of wealth, or their wealth, or how they got it, or why they dont, is itself classless.
I think accepting people for what they are without judging them shows class. If you don't happen to like someone, you move on past them. You stop to judge them, and you're lost in the classless qaugmire.
Gosh...didn't know I was involved in class warfare. Perhaps my assumption was wrong. What might be kind of interesting, although impossible to do on the internet because there is know way to verify a statement, would be for those who post "you can't tell me how to dress" if they would post the price they paid for their trip, the Cruise line, and the Cabin number so that we could compare how much the complainers paid.
I've seen far too many people who pay next to nothing loudly complain about service or lack thereof. Doubt it? Listen to your seatmates on an airline flight. Flights are full but airlines are bleeding money because people won't pay enough to cover the costs. People complain because an airline advertised a $100 round trip transcontinental flight, but the best they are able to find is $150. People pay those fares and then complain about the lack of a meal, or a poor movie, or not getting a full can of soda.
Perhaps I am low class myself, having intimated that many of the dress code complainers have paid less than top dollar for their cruise. But you gotta give me this, although I paid rock bottom for my cruise, I also played by the rules and dressed accordingly. Heck, I went so far that I didn't use my dinner napkin as a bib when I ate my viddles and I tried my darndest not to shout "Gow-ly Uncle Jed...there's a cee-ment pond smack in the middle of the boat".
I think people in general are ruder these days then they used to be. Children have recently been raised by parents who handed them anything they wanted and they have the attitude that the world owes them everything. I do however think the those that have better incomes and were raised by people with better incomes have a little more class (for the most part) than those who don't have and weren't brought up with wealth. Only because of their surroundings did they acquire this class. But to say that those who purchased higher dollar rooms have the most class is incorrect. Some one with lower incomes may have saved years to take their cruise of a life time and booked the most expensive room on the ship and maybe these people are not the classiest people in the world. And maybe they are!
Well I guess it's time to put in my 2 cents here. I for one am definetely a jeans and t-shirt guy. Even getting me into Dockers or Khaki's is a chore! I also dress in jeans and t-shirts at work. I work for the 2nd Largest IT company in the world, dealing with critical systems for some very large companies. I memtion this just to point out that in many places, the office atmosphere is much more relaxed than it was 10 years ago. Now as far as formal nights go, I have an easy solution. I use the alternative dining on formal night. I for one am not going to put on a suit but at the same time, I don't want to ruin the formal night experience for those that enjoy it. We all know that there are plenty of places to get food on any ship. Formal night may be a good time to check out one of the speciality dining rooms.
As far as the income / class argument. Well, I think it has been pretty well stated that there are good and bad people who have money and there are good and bad people without money.
NCL SEA 03/03
RCCL Sovereign 10/03