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  #31 (permalink)  
Old September 26th, 2004, 10:11 AM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Lots of folks feel that way also, and so they don't take the higher priced, more inclusive lines. That's fine, as they make their choice and enjoy their cruise. But, as I understand it, this thread isn't about all inclusive vs. ala carte cruising. It's about ala carte (or non-inclusive) lines ALSO restricting guests as to lower cost alternative beverage sources for cabin or suite use (such as carry on from home or ports, and maybe also sales from the ship's store). This thread is about whether it is "tacky" for guests to violate the lines' rules. IMO, it is. But it is no more tacky than the rule itself. Unless my info is out of date, there are still one or two non-inclusive lines out there that allow carry on from ports, etc. (or else sell liquor bottles in the ship's store at a very reasonable price for consumption in cabin or suite). Not everyone does, or should, like the lines that I like. All I'm saying is that those folks who want to take a lower cost, non-inclusive line but still want an alternative drink source that is cheaper than bar prices should not break rules or gripe. Instead, they should patronize the few non-inclusive lines that are left that allow this alternate source, and then inform the line as to WHY they took it and liked it. This will do more good to keep such lines around than griping about the other lines.

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Old September 26th, 2004, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

ok ,,It's obvious that i failed to make my point..it seems that all focused on the penny pincher comment..my post was meant to show how some people just refuse to obey the rules...there ARE rules . We know the rules . We are informed of the rules , and still some people refuse to follow them...remember "Without rules there is choas."

Dont jump and splash in the pool, don't wear shorts to dinner and dont smuggle your $6 bottle of wine on board...

Is that so hard to understand ?

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old September 26th, 2004, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

There will always be people who think they're too important, too put-upon, too smart -- whatever -- for the rules to apply to them. Entitlement mentality is like a disease in our society.

And we're not even talking about "rules". We're talking about terms and conditions: There is a big difference! Rules are imposed. Terms and conditions are implicitly agreed-to when you engage a supplier to provide you a service. You have every right to avoid the terms and conditions, by not buying the service. If I offer you a pen at $3 and a pencil at $1, you DON'T get to take both the pen and pencil for $3.

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Old September 26th, 2004, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

>>Entitlement mentality is like a disease in our society>>

How right you are, Bicker. The rules and conditions to which many people tacitly agree when they purchase a cruise is immediately offset when they board by what I call the "It's my vacation and I'll do what I want" mentality.

As though being on vacation allows you to relax everything - your body, your mind, your code of conduct and any moral or ethical code you may have.

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Old September 26th, 2004, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Okay, I give my 15% everytime I sign a slip and gladly. I go out of my way to tip at the end of my cruise and all the envelopes with a tip larger than the "expected amount".

Plus at the end I go round the ship with a fist full of dollars, tipping staff members who have made my vacation, those not normally tipped.

But I will not pay the price for a can of coke or bottled water out that little fridge in my cabin,no way.

So next port I bring it onboard, water and coke and stick it in the cabin fridge I have paid to live with for that cruise.

Does that make me a bad person, not forgetting the lines has had theirs as well as my tab for the 10 days is usually over $2000, not including casino spend.

What harm have I done bringing soft drinks and water onboard?
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Old September 26th, 2004, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

It depends on the cruise line, I believe. Check the cruise line web site. I checked RCI's and there is no prohibition posted there about bringing your own beverages on-board, as long as they're not alcoholic.

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Old September 26th, 2004, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Ed:

Your point is not that hard to understand at all. Cruising would be better, and gripes would be fewer, if all made an effort to learn the rules and conditions set forth by each cruise line, and then chose a line with rules and conditions they could live with and enjoy. Don't like formal night? Oceania and certain sailings on other lines are 100% casual. Like formal night? Cunard has cruises and crossings where the majority of the nights are formal. Want to bring a certain type of beverage onboard? Pick a line that allows what you want to do. Don't want to cruise on a ship where others bring their own beverages on board? Pick a line that is restrictive on this matter.

This accomplishes two things. First, by chosing a line that is compatable with your wishes as to rules, you will have a more enjoyable cruise. Second, if any line is imposing rules and restrictions which too many customers don't like, lack of revenue will change this far faster than all the posted gripes.

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Old September 27th, 2004, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Richard, great post yet again.

Brian, I see where you are coming from, but chill man. "Lord of the Flies" for goodness sake, a wee bit OTT is it not that comparison? Given people are on a luxury ship.

And as for taking in every rule that is in small print before boarding the line, then that is way too much. I am going on vacation, not buying a home or business or anything that would get my attention to that detail.

I have asked this question a dozen times before, can I please have a real answer.

If someone brings on some beer or a few bottles of wine. And they are nice people, not bothering anyone. What harm have they done to any of you that you would want to complain about their action, its not your ship, its not your profit margin, they have not caused a scene or wasted your vacation. Whats THE REAL PROBLEM here?

The whole respect thing does not work in this case

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Old September 27th, 2004, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

I believe that the problem that most people see is not in direct relation to any certain person bringing any specific beverage aboard.

Rather it is the eventual cost that everyone pays ( in the form of more expensive cruises) when many people decide it is their "right" to ignore the conditions of the cruise ticket purchased. Would you go into a local restaurant with your own meal, only to use the establishment's dinner ware and service? No. This is completely unacceptable, and I doubt there is anyone on this board that would argue in favor of that scenario.

It is the exact same thing when cruising. You cannot bring aboard alcohol as this is something the cruise line has deemed unacceptable as it affects their profit. If you decide that soda and alcoholic beverages are a necessity when cruising, you may purchase what it available on the ship. If you feel these prices are too high, you still have a choice! As Richard pointed out, there are lines that do not prohibit the bringing aboard of certain beverages. Cruise those lines!

These lines are businesses. Their entire profit does not depend on your cruise fare. If you do not wish to contribute any more to their bottom line than the cost of your ticket, then don't consume "extra" beverages, play bingo, endulge in spa treatments, etc. You always have choices, however some people seem to think that they can make up their own list of acceptable choices and choose accordingly, without regard to policy, ethics, contracts or those around them.
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Old September 27th, 2004, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Look, this is a floating hotel, not a prison ship with inmates, thats the bottom line.

Question: If I stayed in the most expensive hotels in the world, went out locally and bought some wine, what are they going to do when I come back to the hotel? I'll tell you, they will carry it back to my room for me when I walk in the door.

People are confusing the lines trying to tie peoples expenditure to them, and only them. With the on land restaurant experience, sorry It does not carry. No I would not expect to take my beer or wine into a restaurant. I'll pay that price for eating there as an experience

But ships are ONLY floating hotels, and I reserve the freedom that I have on land to have choice.

Ships are not individual restaurants, the same rules do not follow. The fear of increased prices to cruise does not touch base, as the vast volume of potential cruisers available today is leading to new ship orders and war between the lines to put butts in bunks.

Please be realistic as to why ships may enforce such rules, again its to make sure all your money is spent with them, thats all.

A small example, you pay $100 dollars each for a shore trip, try taking yourself the photo going off ship with the "local" and the ships lifebelt,,,no chance its all tied up and as far as they are concerned so is you're available cash, too them

I cant believe intelligent people cant see the diiference and just follow the party line or should that be cruise.

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old September 27th, 2004, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

There have been many, many threads on this board and others criticizing some lines for adopting and enforcing policies that force guests to purchase certain beverages ONLY from the ship, and at prices set at a level somewhat above land bar prices, at least in my area. It should be clear to all that griping about this on the boards is not going to get the attention of, or a change by, any line. At least for me, it is a degrading experience to have to sneak around like a high school student on prom night to bring prohibited beverages onboard. I won't do it. Folks, we have choices. If we don't like a line's policies, don't book on that line. As posted above, Princess allows guests to bring wine aboard. Last time I heard, RCI will sell you a bottle of liquor onboard for $10 over duty free for your cabin --- and that is about $3 per liter cheaper than prices at my home. Oceania doesn't bother you with carry ons, last I heard, and has fares competitive with HAL. Then you can always take the lux lines, cruise less, enjoy it more, and they give you bottles and drinks. So if you want to do it, and it is prohibited on the line you are considering, look to another line where you don't have to sneak.

Same with formal night. I don't want to look more like a fool than I have to, and certainly would not show up on formal night dressed in any way except "to dress code." I wouldn't have a good time, and neither would my fellow guests. There are lines out there, and individual cruises, that don't require formal dress. Book on one of these, if you dislike formal nights and aren't willing to go along with the code.

IMO, there are some lines out there that have become so "cheezy" and "money grabbing" that I won't take them. Creating a captive market for drinks. Turning port talks into infomercials for port merchants that give a kickback. Art auction announcements that remind one of the state fair. "Extra cost restaurants" that become a necessity because the regular restaurant is too crowded or serves bad food. I could go on, but all of you understand. Since I can't "reform" such lines that aren't in line with my personal tastes, I just avoid them. If you have been cruising a line with policies you disagree with in a major way, don't sneak or break the rules. Just switch lines. You will have a better cruise, and if enough folks switch, your former line will feel it the only place that counts ---- in the form of reduced revenues.

Thanks,
Richard
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Old September 27th, 2004, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

believe it or not folks, I don't drink! It doesn't bother me that someone chooses to "sneak" booze on board. I really don't understand why it would bother anyone else either. If someone was bringing completely offensive or dangerous things then I would have a problem with that.

But liquor is sold on ships(so drinking isn't wrong or offensive or dangerous), and some people just choose to bring their own. It doesn't hurt anyone.

It also has nothing to do with economics or profitability and certainly does not translate into changes in pricing. The loss of revenue if lines were to really enforce the liquor policy and really stopped people from bringing it on board would be unacceptable for them. They just kinda scare the average person into not taking it on board but I've never seen any liquor being confiscated or bags opened up during embarkation (I'm talking about putting it in your luggage before boarding).

Bringing your own booze is not an ethical violation of biblical proportions, it's not unethical at all. It is not a contractual violation, as David said, I usually don't have my lawyer look over the cruise before I purchase it. It is however their policy, and some simply choose not to agree with it, (kinda like taking something back to Best Buy after 31 days, not in the policy, but it's never been turned down)

Do you always point your tires toward the curb when parking on a downhill slope.......because that is the agreement you enter into upon obtaining your drivers licence.

It is not definitely right or definitely wrong, it's grey. That's why these boards are so wonderful

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Old September 27th, 2004, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

one more time...I wear my seatbelt, only cross at the crosswalk ...with the light...as a member of society I obey the rules of the society...I expect the same on land or on a ship..IF they say no booze then thats its...some people think its only a crime if you get caught...thats all its simple its not grey...either you abide or you dont ...is that so hard?

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old September 27th, 2004, 06:03 PM
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Default Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

Quote:
Brian, I see where you are coming from, but chill man. "Lord of the Flies" for goodness sake, a wee bit OTT is it not that comparison?
Not at all. That's just about the most appropos comparison I can come up with. I think it is a cop-out to hide behind trying to keep things light and easy to avoid confronting an issue of entitlement, like this one.

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Old September 27th, 2004, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

Quote:
Look, this is a floating hotel, not a prison ship with inmates, thats the bottom line.
That's a great attempt to avoid the issue. Cruise ships aren't floating hotels, any more than Walt Disney World is a big church carnival.

Quote:
I reserve the freedom that I have on land to have choice.
Then stay on land, or avoid the cruise lines that have terms and conditions you don't want to be subject to. You don't get to make up your own terms and conditions and then force them on the cruise lines.

Quote:
I cant believe intelligent people cant see the diiference and just follow the party line or should that be cruise.
I can't believe you actually are disparaging integrity in an effort to make the perspective you're trying to peddle look less deviant. Sorry for the tough talk, but such a selfish perspective disgusts me.

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Old September 27th, 2004, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

It is interesting to hear the comment that those who bring their own liquor onboard for cabin use are unjustly rewarded in the same way tax evaders are rewarded. Of course, US Constitution and statutes gives the government the right to levy and collect taxes. Somehow, the idea has grown that cruise lines have a RIGHT to be the sole supplier of drinks on a cruise. And some lines do set things up this way by contract, sort of.

Again, I don't want to pay what I do for a cruise and then have to sneak around! If you do, you may get away with it, and you may not. Be prepared to buy all your drinks from the ship at THEIR prices. Don't like it? I don't either. So look for another line, like I did. (Gosh, I'm sounding like a broken record! What will it take to stop the griping and "discussion" of this, and get people to "vote with their wallets"?)

Thanks,
Richard
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Old September 27th, 2004, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

Cruise ships are private property. They have MORE right to regulate their private property than the government has right to regulate public property. Remember that the US Constitution strictly LIMITS the US government's right in that regard, while the right to govern your own private property is far less restricted.

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Old September 27th, 2004, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Nobody wants the Federal Government to regulate cruise ships, beyond the health and safety regulations now in place. In fact, I think they regulate them too much now, in the form of the Jones Act, but that is beyond the topic of this post.

Again, all I say is find a ship or line whose policies you can live with, book it, and do so. Don't book a ship or line whose policies you can't live with, then sneak around and violate them, and gripe about it all later. What part of this is hard to understand?

Thanks,
Richard
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Old September 27th, 2004, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

I think you misread what I wrote. Cruise ships are private property.

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Old September 27th, 2004, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Yes, they are private property. a guest actually purchases a "license" from the line allowing him to be on the ship. The ship can impose rules and restrictions in written material governing the guest's conduct. At the beginning of the "great carry-on liquor restriction" about two years ago, some lines did not have their documents in order for such a restriction ---- but I think they all do now. Fine.

Again (and again) all I say is that a prospective guest needs to learn what these rules and restrictions are before booking. If the guest learns of rules and restrictions he does not like, he should not look for ways to sneak around and break them. Instead, he should shop for another line with rules and restrictions he can live with, book that cruise instead, obey the rules, and enjoy it. If all guests were to do this, stop playing "cat and mouse" games with the lines, and "vote with their wallets", this whoe situation would clear itself up rather quickly. And guests would have fewer gripes and enjoy their vacations more. Do we understand it now?

Thanks,
Richard
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Old September 27th, 2004, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

I think we're definitely in agreement now: Cruise lines policies are legit. Don't like 'em, don't cruise that line.

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Old September 28th, 2004, 10:28 AM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Do any of you watch airline? I a person gets intoxicated because it helps them deal with flying it doesn't affect me but it against the rules so therefore they are not allowed to fly. If you don't like those rules than you are not obligated to fly.
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Old September 28th, 2004, 01:18 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

The perspectives which I've read here don't address what I consider to be the primary intent of the cruiseline's policies and that is to have something written into the terms which they can enforce when they deem it necessary. I have never seen anyone denied boarding because of confiscated liquor. I have seen people board with bottles of liquor in clear plastic carryon bags.

I believe the intent of the policy is to have something in place to enforce when a group of rowdies try to finance their trip by selling bottles of Jack Daniels out of their rooms. (An exaggeration of course.) They are not interested in denying boarding to Jack and Susan Midlifers because they want to have a cocktail on their balcony before retiring to bed. Not having a written policy which they can enforce would surely lead to much larger problems.

Imagine people walking around the ship sucking out of a bottle of rum.

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Old September 28th, 2004, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Thomas:

I believe your analysis is more correct as to what cruise lines used to do than as to what they do today. Example: RCCL used to openly allow carry on booze from any port. Even then, they had a written provision giving them the "right to restrict" alcohol consumption, which they could (and did) use to control obnoxious drunks, whether they got that way from carry on booze or in the ship's bar. Then, in June 2002 this line began a policy of restricting carry on alcoholic beverages. They searched carry on luggage and took bottles, and gave them back at cruise end --- all based on the "right to restrict" provision. Since that time, I know of several lines that have actually written in provisions that outright prohibit any "personal alcohol" in ones' cabin or suite. I don't know if RCI has such a written policy or not. Recently, NCL was X raying checked luggage, under the guise of security. This program recovered no weapons of mass destruction, but plenty of bottles of booze! HAL allowed carry on bottles until a few months ago, when HAL adopted a written rule specifically prohibiting any carry ons. With few exceptions, one has to sneak to get a bottle onboard most of the large lines. I don't like to have to sneak around, after paying all that money for a cruise so I take smaller lines that don't have these rules and procedures.

Thanks,
Richard
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Old September 28th, 2004, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Penny Pinchers

Ed - quote -
one more time...I wear my seatbelt, only cross at the crosswalk ...with the light...as a member of society I obey the rules of the society...I expect the same on land or on a ship..IF they say no booze then thats its...some people think its only a crime if you get caught...thats all its simple its not grey...either you abide or you dont ...is that so hard?


Do you mean to tell me that 'on land' when you're in port trying to buy a lava rock necklace for $30 bucks you abide by their pricing policy and guideline (the quoted price when you ask "how much") and pay what they're asking?? That quote is contractual.

If you were crossing the street and 3/4 of the way through the yellow hand started to flash and you couldn't quite make it, would you go turn yourself in to the FBI?
Maybe you wouldn't have gotten caught. Is it still a crime?

By the way, I've got some prime land in arizona for sale!

Many things in life are grey. Cruise lines don't like you bringing your own alchohol on board but don't really check for it either. To me, that's grey.

You pay for a vacation, and with a cruise, you get a fantastic vacation. But the cruise line is another provider of product and service. A lot more elaborate but little different from any other vendor. Their policies were not carved on stone tablets up on a mountain. And their policies are not man's law either. Gees man, you used the word crime.

I think I kinda see what you're saying, that for the most part our society works because we abide by rules. I guess the difference is that I really do think there are grey areas in life, and in my mind, bringing booze on a ship is not a crime. That's all

banker

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Old September 28th, 2004, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Oh, and I see people's bank accounts, holdings, incomes, T4's, tax assessments, etc. all the time. And I know that most people with a variable pay component such as commission or bonus or tips do not always report accurately to the government, which in the strictest sense, is illegal (but as with bringing alchohol, difficult and not always practical to enforce).

Abbettal or even unknowingly participating in such activity, with a wait person in a restaurant for example(leaving them a tip), IS actually "criminal"

Do you partake in this, or do you report such activity when you observe it, as is your civic duty?

This is what I mean by "grey"

Banker



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Old September 29th, 2004, 10:14 AM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Finally some reasonable people have chimed in on this subject. I have read this thread with amazement that some people consider small things (like bringing a bottle onboard) to be a statement about a persons integrity and morality. I certainly hope those that stand in complete judgement of others are oh so careful in their everyday life to make sure that they never, ever violate any little bitty rule or policy. Must get very tedious.
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Old September 29th, 2004, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

IMO, there is nothing immoral about a guest who attempts to sneak personal alcohol aboard a cruise ship, even on one of those lines that is very proactive about preventing this. Simply stated, it doesn't concern or bother me. But, I know that sometimes sneaking booze onboard works, and sometimes you get caught, and have no "personal booze" for the duration of your cruise. And as you approach embarkation, you never know which willl happen.

For me personally, and only personally, I got very tired of having to sneak bottles around like a school kid now that I'm 60! This alone subtracts from my cruise experience. I recognize that the lines have the right to write in such restriction into their passage contracts, but that does not mean I have to like the captive market that results. I decided I'd rather switch than fight!

In selecting lines wherein I can bring booze and other legal substances onboard without question, I'm doing more than just avoiding a situation I don't like. On the positive side, I am supporting, with my dollars, the lines who have policies I DO like. People doing this is the best way to insure that such lines will remain around.

Thanks,
Richard
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Old September 29th, 2004, 12:02 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

I have personally witnessed a passenger bringing on board 4 bottles of booze he bought in port on a Carnival cruise. When walking through security an agent told him he could take the booze to his cabin for an $8 fee, or he would hold the booze for him in the storage room until the last night of the cruise. He paid the $8.

I walked through with bottles of mixers in an opaque sack, put them through the scanner, and picked them up on the other side and nobody said anything, or even looked in the bag. The x-ray machine could not tell if the bottles were booze or mixers.

Now the questions came up; was the security guy just trying to pocket $8 for himself? Is this a policy of the cruiseline? Why didn't my package get searched? Is personal booze allowed in the cabins?

Corporations have policies "on the books" all the time to selectively enforce them when they feel it's necessary. I really doubt any cruiseline wants the bad publicity around busting a couple because they found a bottle in their cabin. And I seriously doubt a cabin steward is going to rat somebody out when he knows his compensation is dependant upon the passengers.

Regards,
Thomas
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Old September 29th, 2004, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Penny Pinchers

Thomas:

Last time I checked, Carnival had the policy of collecting such bottles brought on at ports, and returning them on the last night, with no "room fee" or anything like that possible. So, I'm just as interested as you are about this. I'm afraid the security guy was just pocketing the money, especially if he took cash rather than a signature. But, this might not be a bad program for any line to actually adopt. There have been few complaints about RCCL charging a similar fee over duty free prices for taking a bottle bought in the ships store to cabin our suite.

Thanks,
Richard.
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