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  #1 (permalink)  
Old November 27th, 2004, 03:01 PM
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Default No disrespect,,but

Sorry,,,,, but this has been coming for a while now. And before anyone starts, yes I know this is a private forum with rules and I have a choice, do it or dont.

So my gripe is (and I accept posting rules) is that what CM should really be saying is that this board is for Americans only, maybe Canadians as well.

For the rest of us,,,we do not understand where you guys draw the line sometimes when reading what you see as personal attacks or what is PC when reading and reacting to others comments

When I do it, it is for me, my personal opinion, hard questioning, justify your statement or maybe I even give a sarcastic reaction regarding an other post made. Hey thats real life discussion

We appear to be allies, but in thought and reaction to the simpliest things we are a million miles apart. It appears you do not understand others, their tact, questioning or humour or give acceptance of "anothers" opinion as may blow your "so called" PC values".

If I in the UK cant understand your reaction or thought process. No wonder we are in the state we are in with the rest of the world.

Yes,,,,I've already anticipated the flag waving contingent to this post,,,you will only back up my point of we are us and you are you and if you dont like it...............

And if you are going to take me to task re my thoughts as a denial, ,,show me the link that proves you are as open in conversation as I have been here,,,,

Open and sensible discussion is what is needed,,, you guys through what you have been brought up with and your belief as to what is PC and what is not in society ,,,have killed conversation. People are too scared to give an opinion or they may be tagged as a "something".

What's needed is a reality check on differences from the rest of the world regarding giving opinion and acceptance of the right to do so, unless of course you do not want the rest of us involved.

And incase anyone wonders where this came from, it started with a warning email to me from CM regarding a sarcastic one line post I had made to a reply on Dorothys "Teen" post that they deleted as a personal attack

and I quote me "Was that worth 2 cents, inflations terrible, especially the inflation of the righteous"

What, sorry,,,,dont get the problem

That was only sarcism and "humour" were I come from.

Post Edited (11-27-04 16:12)
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Old November 27th, 2004, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

David, if you will read my posts, I have always given my opinion and have supported the rights of others to give theirs. I don't believe in PC either on the conservative or liberal side of issues.

I do support CM in preventing religious or political arguments or in people slamming each other. Gripes are great if you inject a bit of humor, and this board should be for fun and for information.

On my last cruise which was a trans-Atlantic from Copenhagen to New York, I met many cruisers from your side of the pond, and we agreed on most issues. I don't really see there being any great divide.

.
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Old November 27th, 2004, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

Thanks Paul, I agree you and another handful are up to tell it as it is, so given above why did they "can" my comment?

Because,,,,It was the interpretation of the PC mind that led to the deletion.

Put it this way someone is allowed to post "their" words to the letters of BIBLE, that very thing could be very offensive to a lot of people, personally I actually found it very offensive as it degrades something that is NOT open to personal interpretation or meaning but that was missed by the self righteous who reacted to me

I make my smart as**d comment to it..,whats happens do they get canned for messing with the bible no. Why...., whats the difference in the posts? Its got to be a culture thing, one is missed and seen as acceptable, one because its easily seen as sarcastic or in this case "a personal attack" is deleted for all the wrong reasons.

How can I as an ousider begin to have an open discussion when the rules are not consistant re acceptability

Post Edited (11-27-04 16:15)
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Old November 27th, 2004, 05:48 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

David;
Yes, your comment was deleted. No, there is no favoritism to different countries. As of last month there were posters from 37 different countries on the message boards. It is true that the majority are from the U.S and Canada but it makes no difference to the moderators where someone is from.

In regard to your deleted post, your own statement tells why it was deleted.

'I make my smart as**d comment to it..,"

Perhaps stating your position on why you disagreed with the post instead of a derogatory one liner, would not have resulted in your post being deleted.

Mike

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Old November 28th, 2004, 08:59 AM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

David, you opening post displays its own lack of understanding of culture and consciousness in North America, particularly the US. Not everyone here is devoted to Political Correctness. And, not everyone in the US is a Bible-thumper. In fact, those two groups are polar opposites, yet you lump them together. I think your conclusions about our society are drawn upon incorrect assumptions and simplistic models of behavior. You can be forgiven, though - when on of your largest newspapers calls more than 59 million Americans "stupid", it's easy to fall victim to the propaganda. No disrespect in return, but consider that anyone posting broad generalizations of your nation based upon lies and faulty assumptions would look equally stupid in your eyes.

There is diversity of thought and opinion everywhere, including the UK. We still share a lot of common ground in spite of our differences. Most of here love and admire our friends overseas.

I agree that there are more than a few who seem to think that any challenge of a ridiculous complaint or statement that is factually wrong is akin to bashing the poster. Some people react emotionally, some react pragmatically, and a few just takes things way too personally.
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Old November 28th, 2004, 11:50 AM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

It is very simple, READ THE TERMS OF SERVICE! It matter not where you are from or where you are going, race, religion, nationality, gender, age, sexual preference, or anything else that makes people different. Just real simple, if the TOS says you can't do it, you can't and we will delete it at our discretion. Some posts are in a gray area and we look at them hard and tend to err to wards the poster. One of the biggest problems with this board is that it is not being used correctly in that it is SUPPOSED to be about things that are not to your satisfaction about cruising with possible suggestions about how to make them better. Instead you have people come on here that try to be cute and make, well for lack of a better description, stupid or childish remarks that have nothing to do with cruise problems. How in the world would you expect anyone who works for the cruiseline to come here and treat this board with interest or respect when someone starts complaining about others who laugh loudly, has children, likes to disco, has an SUV at home or make more money than you or has a nasty temper. What in the world do you think the cruiseline can do about it to make you feel better? At this point it is getting to be a totally irrelevant board and folks need to get back to the original purpose behind it and express things that you do not think are right about cruising and how they can be improved.
Jim

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Old November 28th, 2004, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

On past cruises, I"ve always gotten on swimmingly with passengers from the UK...I think that's not just because I love their sense of humor, but because most of them share my "Blue-State" feeling that the government of my beloved homeland has lost its way of late-- or maybe just lost its mind!

Don't be shy about expressing your opinions either online or onboard, cruisers from across the pond! Americans can actually learn something from the fact that not every rational civilized person in the world sees things in exactly the same way!
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Old November 28th, 2004, 01:40 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

David B. and all:

Even though we live in Oklahoma, we read the European press and sense that a cultural divide is growing between the US and Europe (including GB are the Republic of Ireland). I shall not discuss the issues involved in this divide, as I think we all know what they are. What I sense has grown to such proportions that we are seriously considering cancelling our May cruise from Venice to Athens, for fear we won't be welcome there because of our nationality.

We in the US don't need less communication with our friends on the other side of the Atlantic ---- we need more. Our country has stood as divided as it is only twice before -- During the Revolutionary War with your country and during our own Civil War. We need to make Europeans aware that assumptions they may make about US residents may, and usually do, apply to only half of pur population.

I've had posts deleted here and elsewhere. Board rules aren't easy to understand. But now, as never before, we need to keep international lines of communication open -- including this one.

Thanks,
Richard
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Old November 28th, 2004, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

Richard thanks bud, and dont cancel ........you and all Americans / Canadians are loved and welcomed here in Europe. I really mean that, and that is a brilliant cruise,,dont miss it. Dont believe what you read, make your own mind up ,,and I know you do!

On reflection I nearly asked for this to be deleted as it did generalise people which if any of you know me I hate generalisation and it was posted through frustration

All I was really saying, is I dont know the rules of acceptance sometimes on your side of the pond, so I get frustrated when what I say can have the reaction it gets, as it was not meant or written in the tone or reaction I get as a reply (apart from I get sarcastic).

Cruisin, you got it in one. Here am I talking about America, when there are cultural and acceptance differences between the Scots, the English, the French, the Germans and Spanish etc in Europe and how they all react to things

Mike, thanks for the positive and constructive feedback, know where you are coming from. But sorry you misread the tone of my post. I never mentioned favouritsm re countries. It was about cultural understanding and my problem with you guys and version of acceptance, that I dont understand sometimes

Jim Bragg,,,99% of my posts are constructive and I give more postive opinions and lead people re cruising questions than most on CM. So if that was a general comment post I agree, but if it was aimed at me direct then that was a personal attack and not acceptable if you take the time to read my other posts regarding cruising

Actually, I've re-read again for the third time Jim, are you okay? This is Gripes after all you are talking about.

Jeph, thanks, but I cant get involved right now in that discussion, got enough to deal with

Okay it looks like if I'm going to stick around here as your token Scot, I'll have too think not twice, but three times before letting loose with my "wit"

But what I posted was never meant as seeing favouritism from one side of the pond to the other. It was just ignorance or a lack of understanding of the social rules on my part regarding my friends over the pond and how I in "my" way could be strong in presenting my opinion without that opinion breaking your guys "social" rules of acceptance.

Thats it, just a frustration and I griped

Post Edited (11-28-04 15:26)
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Old November 28th, 2004, 04:31 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

I make no personal attacks, just general observations and I stand by what I said, the "gripes" board should be constructive and not just someplace to run off at the mouth about silly things. That is true for anyone and everyone here including myself and my staff. I have been accused of being liberal, conservative, a bible-thumper and an athiest, a homophobe and gay, and just about everything else from each end of the spectrum which means to me that I am pretty darn fair-handed. As for nationalistic, yes I love my country and have served it in many ways always trying to do my part no matter what it is to improve it. This does not mean I dislike other nations, cultures etc, quite the contrary I dearly love the study of other cultures and frankly my best friends both of the male and female gender happen to be Brits. Nothing much to do with their land of birth, rather more to do with them personally. I have friends of many nationalities and people I do not care for from just as many. It doesn't matter where they are from, rather who they are that counts to me.
Jim

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Old November 28th, 2004, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

Jim: Why are you defending yourself to him? This is getting ludicrous.

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Old November 28th, 2004, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

David B or is it Davy B?
I do believe that a few months ago you said you were leaving this board as you did not like the replies you were receiving to your continuous complaints.
You came back as David B and are still complaining. What did you think had changed?
Did you actually leave?
PLEASE, stop whining about Americans and their treatment of you. If you don't like it no one is tying you to this site, there are others.
Mara
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Old November 28th, 2004, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: Re: No disrespect,,but

David, I see what you are saying, but I don't see how you take that as some kind of nation vs nation issue, or even a cultural issue.

I have noticed that in several posts of yours you allude to "my friends across the pond" etc. somehow drawing a distinction between continents. This may be something only in your head. I don't mean that in an offensive way, just that it might be something that comes into your mind more often than other peoples minds. I as a Canadian don't really notice where you are from until you point it out.

You may find more people of a certain value set or certain way of thinking simply becuase there are more of us posting here that happen to be from North America.

really, there is no issue here!

banker
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Old November 29th, 2004, 08:45 AM
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Default Re: Re: Re: No disrespect,,but

Mike, Jim, somebody...

Just for example, where in the TOS is the discussion of religious or political subjects prohibited? Again, I refer to these two subject areas just for example...

With all due respect, CM staff periodically refer back to the TOS to justify their decisions to delete -- to censor -- but seem not to accept that due to the often vague and sometimes simply omitted language in the TOS, their decisions often have an abritrary appearance. I would submit it is this "appearance," in part, that leads to the charge some have made that decisions to delete are driven by differences in opinions and values between CM staff and certain posters, hence unfair.

When pressed, there seems to be a tendency for some CM staff to take the defensive. When pressed further, there seems to be a tendency to become agressive. "Read the rules," we are told. "If you don't like them, go somewhere else."

It seems to me, and I truly mean no offense, that if CM looked within itself, just for a moment, it might condsider that by slightly tightening its TOS in some places and by clarifying it a bit in other places, they might avoid a fair bit of the criticism they receive from time to time as a result of decisions they make using the TOS for justification to make the decisions.

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Old November 29th, 2004, 11:51 AM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

Simple Dartoid and this has been explained to you before, there is a section in the TOS that says we can and will delete things that are meant to inflame or have the intent to inflame and politics and religion tend to do that. We wish to keep the boards friendly and avoid ideoligical warfare and it has nothing to do with cruising anyway. There are website out there just for that and you should go there to discuss these topics there. You have been informed of this in the past both privately and publically but keep wanting to post it on the boards. Appears you wish to make a public arguement and that is not going to happen. Bottom line is that this is a privately funded website and we do make the rules and have to option as stated to delete anything we wish without explanation. We choose to be lenient and public about our decisions in the hopes that most will understand that we are doing what is best for the whole and not for any one individual. I may get a little defensive as I truely believe my staff is exceptional and do a wonderful job that is without much thanks just to make this a pleasant place to come. 'nuff said.
Jim

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Old November 29th, 2004, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: Re: No disrespect,,but

Jeez, Jim. I apologize.

My reference to religion and politics was by way of example. I stated this twice.

My post was written respectfully -- and it was sympathetic to the position you and other CM staff find yourselves in, occasionally.

My post was intended to cite an observation that may or may not contribute to the the hassles you sometimes confront and to suggest a possible way of dealing with those hassles. Please, just read again what I posted -- particularly the final paragraph.

No offense was intended. I have no desire to enter into further debate about censorship. Whether I like it or not, I have no option but to accept CM's right "to delete anything (you) wish without explanation."

What I posted was meant to be constructive.

Again, my apology.
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Old November 29th, 2004, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

Quite simple actually, where I live and the rules of society I live in. People can and will speak and act towards others in a way that other cultures may find unacceptable.

So I may say things that in another society are seen as a "personal attack" but in my society its just normal one on one conversation or our way of dealing with things face to face on the issue and not hiding behind trying to be PC in every reaction or action.

So the rules between cultures are not consistent re acceptability.

Not that one is right and one is wrong, its just cultural differences that can become apparent if you find yourself in someone else’s culture and in this case for me trying to understand where Americans and Canadians as people draw the line of acceptable comment on post....Not Cruisemates I know their rules

If I knew that line, then maybe I would phrase some of the things I say better and not in so many cases be so controversial in tone. I will always be controversial re opinion, but I dont want that opinion lost through breaking cultural acceptance

Now do you understand, that this is not about Cruisemates policy

Post Edited (11-29-04 16:25)
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Old November 29th, 2004, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

David B, I deleted a number of your recent posts in this thread as they are personal attacks towards other posters and that is not allowed. You also cannot call people names, even if you do place an ** to keep from spelling it through. As for your "Culture" issues, I have found that the Brits are much politer overall than the Yanks and the way you come across on the Internet with it being two dimensional is quite rude. As I have said, it just so happens that I have many good friends that are Brits, Scots, or Europeans with my two best mates being Brits with one from Stratford on Avon and the other from the Tyne and Wear area. We cannot change the rules just because you believe what you are saying or the way you are sayng something is okay. We are the judges of that, like it or not and we will continue to try and be fair and open about it. I would have replied tyo your personally but you are not registered so that leaves me with this option. There really is not further need for discussion as we are not changing policy to suit any one individual.
Jim

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Old November 29th, 2004, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

Dartoid, apology accepted and sorry to have come back so strongly but understand that there is no way on earth we can place every instance into print. We simply have to make judgements about what is in good taste and acceptable for the masses. While we may not always be correct, rest assured that we try and take these duties seriously and try at all times to lean towards our readers.
Jim

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Old November 29th, 2004, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

There's only one way to get a Scot to shut up and that's to marry him lol. My dh, like Darling David is very opinionated - and he does speak his mind - but I love hime dearly and wouldn't trade him for the world - well maybe for Orlando Bloom - but that would be it. I really want to visit Scotland so I can hear him argue with others of like mind. Watch out David - any year now - TTFN Jennifer
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Old November 29th, 2004, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Re: No disrespect,,but

yeah
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Old November 29th, 2004, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

First of all I hate the term Brits. We are British . Also please note that Scottish, Welsh and people from Northern Ireland are also British. Southern Ireland is a separate country.
I honestly think David B is sitting at home laughing his head off at how angry he has got so many people on this board, he is an antagonist and thrives on controversy.

Why not stop reading and replying to any of his posts and maybe he will stop but the more he gets a rise out of people the happier he is and his work is done!!!!
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Old November 30th, 2004, 04:33 AM
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Default Re: Re: No disrespect,,but

Sorry, Mara, but I that's not the answer. Silence is acceptance. The moderators have an obligation to ensure what they publish represents responsible discourse, and cannot legitimately hide behind claims that someone else typed it in.

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Old November 30th, 2004, 01:25 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

I think the moderators do a fine job policing their boards as they should. They cannot immediately delete every offensive post but they generally get them in short order.

I don't understand what is so confusing, just post with respect. That's all.

People don't have a "right" to come onto these boards and post whatever they feel like just because Cruisemates allows posters to come here freely and without registration. But you will always find the trolls occasionally who want to DBJ (Drive By Jab) for kicks. I'm not calling anyone on these boards Trolls, just the ones who slide in an inflammatory post and never contribute to sensible conversation.

If we were restricted to only commenting on cruiseline related gripes though, as Jim recommends, this forum would have died a slow death many years ago. There is a finite number of gripes generated by the cruiselines and I believe we've discussed them to death many years ago.

Regards,
Thomas
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Old November 30th, 2004, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

oops

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Old November 30th, 2004, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

DavidB,

You are still OK with me.

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Old December 1st, 2004, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

DavidB, Actually your profile does not have an email address. I know it used to when you were DavyB. Email me, I have some info for you.

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Old December 1st, 2004, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

Dave the Wave, am I still okay with you, you bet buddy, did you not pick up the link on the "worst smell post".

And you can bet your "whatever" my email address is not on my "registered " profile. Given my track record of opinion when I wrote as DavyB and the personal email abuse that generated with my email published and the stress consequences for DavyB, no chance now.

The ID was cut as you know and I moved to DavidB, still got your email address buddy will write soon

Jen, thanks pal as always. XXXXXX

Mara, sorry but I dont post to get a rise out of anyone. Search on my name as a poster and yes you will find me contraversial, sometimes in poor taste, but never posting for whatever.

And I agree that I am "antagonist and thrives on controversy".

Well maybe I am antagonist, by maybe because I ask people to look at things in a different light.

Thrives on contraversy, yeah you are right but only because it allows different opinions and healthy conversation and debate. A potential terrible life and in this case board if everyone thought the same or did not convey personal opinion.

ps
Jim not being able to the ** sort of thing is throwing me re appropriate words.
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Old December 1st, 2004, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: Re: No disrespect,,but

DavidB...

I find it all very curious.

You write that you "thrive on controversy" ... and explain that you achieve that through via conscious "antagonism." Why then, when that strategy achieves the logical result -- "email abuse" ... and "stress" -- is it that you change your e-mail address to prevent reciept of all that you strive to gain?

You have written often about what you claim is some sort of cultural divide and argued that certain of your posts, which have raised the ire of others, should be excused because the misunderstandings are unintentional -- that Americans and the British just don't communicate on the same level.

It seems ye protest too much. Your "woe is me" tears are transparent. You've posted yourself into a circle and bit yourself on the butt.

Dartoid
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Old December 1st, 2004, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: No disrespect,,but

This all sounds familiar and reminds me of someone,,,,now who is it?

But fine if thats your opinion of me "Dartoid" I respect it, dont agree, but hey you have every right to express yourself

Thank you for your post, have a nice day

Post Edited (12-01-04 16:10)
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