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  #1 (permalink)  
Old January 31st, 2005, 05:19 AM
Dartoid
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Default Deleting Posts

First, let me copy a post of mine that was not deleted. Then the gripe...

"Just for the record, Jim, I AM JEWISH and I haven't found the posts by Adam or Ibrahim or whatever his or her real name is to be the slightest bit disrespectful or offensive. To the contrary, compared to much af the inane discourse that is allowed (indeed, encouraged in lieu of stimulating discussion of topical issues) on these boards, I would submit that the intelligence apparent in Adam/Ibrahim's satire is refreshing. In addition, and with all due respect, I find it more than just frustrating, and I would think others would as well, to have some posts disappear for sometimes quite mysterious reasons -- for obscure violations of the TOS -- while other posts, such as your's above ("give this twit some food for thought, provided he has any thoughts"), which you acknowledge to be unacceptable ("Yeah, I know, that is a personal attack and not allowed but he is gone again") are permitted to even see the light of day."

Okay, here's a gripe. Jim Bragg has deleted a posts of mine (calling them "vicious attacks") in response to Tamie's gripe about a steward walking into her room, when her door was not locked and when the Do Not Disturb sign was not posted, and her suggestion that the mistaken intrustion was somehow comparable to rape or abuse. I simply find the comparision absurd.

The post above was made to a different board and was not deleted. I copy it above as background for my gripe. My post(s) pertaining to Tamie's gripe were deleted by Jim Bragg because, by his definition, I attacked Tamie. But Jim's post, which drew my response above, remains despite the fact that he attacks (and acknowledges this) the person involved.

I have maintained and continue to maintain that Jim Bragg's decisions on what to delete and what not to delete appear to be arbitrary and value-driven, and not always clearly or even vaguely justified by the TOS. I find that such arbitrary censorship far more offensive -- and far more important an issue to discuss -- than much of the babble that is promoted on these boards.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old January 31st, 2005, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

Here is the scenario, this guy leads you down a road of being responsive to the stage of being rude regarding his thoughts and expression of opinion.

You get in return,,,, and I quote from experience on another thread

"David B, I deleted a number of your recent posts in this thread as they are personal attacks towards other posters and that is not allowed" A response from Jim and I admit in some instances deserved

What does he do (Dartiod), runs to Jim and apologises for his reaction to my posts,,,,. now he's the good guy.!!!

Pleased Dartoid that you have again shown your true colors and pleased Jim has not deleted this one to show it.

Finished, end of story, go away and leave us to our "babble"

Sorry Jim, but it had to be said
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old January 31st, 2005, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: Re: Deleting Posts

David, we certainly have not always agreed in past posts, but with this one I say I
can' t agree more with your post.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old January 31st, 2005, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

Why would a person want to come on a vacation website and be mean to people. I come on here to get good information, read funny posts (thanks banker and everyone else who has me crying with laughter) and to socialize because after awhile you get to know everyone and begin to be concerned with their well being (chit chat for cruisers) Even if your post slips by and does not get deleted there is still no reason to be mean. Instead of calling a person a name why not just say "In the same situation I would have done the following..." There is a way to disagree with other opinions posted by other cruisers without being directly offensive. I do understand that some people may take things the wrong way, but this is a CRUISE website. It is fun and informative. Gripes are usually a way for people to vent not to be attacked. Just my opinion please do not attack me or call me names.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old February 1st, 2005, 01:53 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

What I wrote, DavidB, was not intended to be "rude" or "offensive" to the poster or anybody else and if it came off that way I apologize. Tamie, I am sorry for how my views were received.

I certrainly didn't "viciously attack" (Jim's words) anybody and I take offense to being accused of that.

I did not call anybody a "twit" (as did Jim) and delete them into the ether.

I expressed an opinion. That opinion was, simply, that to compare the opening of a door by a cabin steward (since his job requires him to enter rooms and since the door was unlocked and there was no Do Not Disturb sign on the handle) to the offense of rape or abuse was simply flawed logic.

There's a double standard here -- Jim can openly and admitedly violate the rules and at the same time delete what you or I or anybody else writes on a whim, using his arbitrary and value-driven interpretation of the vague TOS to justify his actions. That's simply unreasonable.

I apologized for my past reactions to a series of your posts because I felt, in the situation, the apology was the right thing to do. Period. My apology does not suggest that I believe your posts should have been deleted.

At the end of the day, this has absolutely no bearing on the reality here (whether you accept or do not accept the reasons given for your posts being deleted) that WHY some posts are deleted and others are not is, seemingly, one of the great mysteries in life.

As I have stated, I see no mystery. The application of the rules is uneven and unfair and determined unilaterally by one individual. My contention and frustration, is that this is wrong.

Talk about how to get a deck chair and what to wear to dinner all you like. Gripe about whatever bugs you, DavidB. You seem to enjoy griping about me. Feel free.

It's blatant censorships that bugs me.

Also mosquitos.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old February 1st, 2005, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: Re: Deleting Posts

It appears that some posters use a lot of words to say essentially nothing. Jim, I'll go with you every time!.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old February 1st, 2005, 02:27 PM
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

Hey PapaBill, long time since we "crossed opinions". How ya doin, hope your well.

As you know I have to keep some intelligent people to one side that I know will give me a hard time on my argument or GRIPE <G>

take care

David
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old February 3rd, 2005, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

Well, you are attacking me but what the heck, I have big sholders. I have not attacked any individual that I know of so do not 'knowingly and admittedly' violate any rules. I sure don't remember any twit remark on the boards. I also e-mail and explain to those that in my opinion violate the TOS and explain why. I do not argue in public and won't start now. Sopmone has to make the decisions about what is within the TOS and what isn't. That job belongs to some of my staff and I have the ultimate authority and try to base it fairly and without any personal feeling towards anyone haveing any bearing on these decisions. I have often been taken to task from both sides and accused of favoring both side to any issue so I figure that I am doing a pretty good job of being fair and in the middle. Bottom line is that the rules are there and it is up to my judgement, be that as it may and it is our website and boards. I hope you understand that.
Jim

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old February 4th, 2005, 03:00 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

"I have not attacked any individual that I know of so do not 'knowingly and admittedly' violate any rules. I sure don't remember any twit remark on the boards."

Perhaps this will refresh your memory:

Author: Jim Bragg
Date: 01-21-05 15:57

"Well, it's over. This may be 'having fun' to a number of people but it is offensive to those of us who respect others and their choice of religious beliefs and is going to stop. Adam is being banned again and have another account cancelled. In light of what happened on the east coast recently when an Christian family from the near east was slaughtered by some islamic extremist because they were upset at what they said on the INternet not respecing their religion should give this twit some food for thought, provided he has any thoughts. Yeah, I know, that is a personal attack and not allowed but he is gone again."

Jim
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old February 4th, 2005, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

I lurked for quite a while before daring to make my first post. I have seen questionable deletions, apparently emotionally driven. However, the bottom line is: the
moderators have the authority to delete posts for any reason or no reason, and are not
required to give an explanation. This message board may be open to the public, but it is privately owned and operated. You aren't required to register to post here. You don't have to read or acknowledge the TOS. (I've done neither.) If the moderators delete posts that aren't in violation of the TOS, they are exercising their rights to control the board as they see fit.

I acknowledge your gripe. You can try and debate the "offensiveness" of the system, but I doubt they will let you. There are also some lessons here, which all successful
adults master: 1) Things aren't always what they seem (The TOS is not a constitutional
statement and doesn't grant you any rights or guarantees, including right of appeal). 2) Politics plays a role in in ALL human activities. 3) It is never a good ideal to annoy and challenge those with the power to affect you negatively.

(I have a suspicion, though, the OP is enjoying pushing buttons and doesn't really
care if his posts are deleted!)

My only comments on this topic,

Tim
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old February 4th, 2005, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

What a great post fom someone who is such an Easy Goer

I and others have learned that lesson the hard way on CM, have you're opinion,,,but dont break the rule. That rule would be bigger than the great wall of China if fully written down. But you rely on the social skills of posters to appreciate that.

I will always debate, but I have learned not to always let my fingers get in front of my brain and sense of reason,,,hopefully !!!

If they do they get the chop on the board, simple. Passion and belief are not always the best bedmates for a good discussion or getting your point across.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old February 4th, 2005, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

It's so hard to have to keep biting your tongue isn't it David?

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old February 5th, 2005, 11:21 AM
Dartoid
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

"Passion and belief are not always the best bedmates for a good discussion or getting your point across."

If it were not for passion and belief, slavery would still exist in America, women would not be able to vote...

They may not always be the best "bedmates for a discussion, but fundamentally, if passion and belief were prohibited, as I basically maintain they are here (if the underscore something that is contrary to the beliefs of one person in particular, the world would be a much different and far worse off place than it is.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old February 5th, 2005, 12:02 PM
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Default Re: Re: Deleting Posts

I wish you would join the debating society!
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old February 5th, 2005, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

Tamie, I planned not to respond any further on this thread, as it is a no brainer.

But, I agree

So, yes now I do bite my tongue and try to think about and place my comments accordingly.

What I've learned is you can still be strong in arguement on CM, but by respecting the board and writing in an fashion acceptable,,,,your point will still be made, without shouting at each other and getting personal. If someone does that to you ignore them or thank them for their post

Shouting and blame pointing just turns others away from your thoughts or what may have been a valid point. My problem with shouters is that is all they do,,,,,, I have yet to read a constructive post from them that actually helps other people or in this cruisers.

They shout because its all about me me me me, like some spoiled child
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old February 5th, 2005, 04:08 PM
newmexiconita
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

If any of you have problems with deletion on this board I don't suggest you go to any other. Let it go at that!!!

NMnita
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old February 7th, 2005, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: Deleting Posts

I like the comment about "Passion and belief are not always the best bedmates for a good discussion or getting your point across." I consider myself a very passonate person with strong beliefs, but it is ever so much more convincing to convey what I feel and what I believe in a calm, respectful, emotionless manner.

As soon as someone raises thier voice, or discounts my comments, I stop listening. I am always interested in other opinions and thought.....I can learn from them.

I experienced this very thing on Sat. night with someone who is going on a cruise with us in 30 days. He was beligerent and condescending, referring to all who voted for our current President an ugly name which began with an "a" and ended with a "hole". I do fall into the 53% of registered voters who voted for our current commander and chief. I am willing to listen to anyones opposing point of view, but when it becomes angry and aggressive, I will just walk away. It was all I could do to convince my husband that we should still go on the cruise!!!

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  #18 (permalink)  
Old February 7th, 2005, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: Re: Deleting Posts

Well said!
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