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Old October 2nd, 2007, 12:27 PM
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Default NCL Runs Vile Commerical Again

While watching Dancing with the Stars last night, I noticed that NCL repeated the vile commercial depicting crusing (other than NCL) to be a highly regimented, tightly scheduled vacation. It depicts passengers forced into crowded lockstep in dining and activities. While I believe that NCL has every right to tout their "freestyle" cruising, I believe they have done damage to the image of cruisers and the cruise industry with this defamatory commercial. It does nothing but reinforce the stereotype of cruising to be a highly regimented and claustrophobic experience. The images depict shuffleboard as the main activity forced upon the cruisers (the only shuffleboard game I saw was on the Celebrity Zenith and it was a bunch of inebriated 20 somthings playing what could only be described as "Combat Shuffleboard" )

I have seen postings on these boards from posters asking for help with a resistant spouse, relative or friend who cites regimentation and feelings of confinement as their excuse not to cruise. This commerical only adds ammo to thier resistance.

NCL should be ashamed of themselves. The only reason I would consider cruising NCL is their Hawaiian offerings as Marj wants to take one, otherwise I would avoid them like poison.

Come and get me NCL cheerleaders!!!!
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Old October 2nd, 2007, 01:23 PM
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I've noticed this commercial before and agree with you...It's completely off the mark.

I don't understand what part of cruising they are saying is so regimented. I think they are just taking the fact that most cruiselines have a couple different dinner seating times in their main dining rooms and making a mountain out of a mole hill over it. I'm only pointing this out for any new cruisers out there but there are tons of different dining options 24 hrs a day while onboard. Also, there are no activities you are forced into other than muster drill and I don't think that you can call that an activity. In fact, both times I've cruised they emphasize that you can relax as much or be as active as you want to be. Personally, I like the assigned dinner times. It give you something to look forward to each day at a certain time...I find that dinner onboard is often the highlight of the day. I also enjoy having the same dining staff waiting on me each night and knowing my preferences as well as having the chance to get to know them

NCL must truly not have anything special to offer if this is the best they can come up with.
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Old October 2nd, 2007, 01:37 PM
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The ad is very misleading, as the only thing "Freestyle" supposedly does to give cruisers more personal freedom is to give them more choices of when and where to dine, and what to wear.. And the ad doesn't tell us that most of these dining options come at extra cost on NCL, and it can be a very long wait for a seat in the main dining room at no extra cost.

I do agree that "fixed seating/fixed time" dining is a bit of an annoyance, as are multiple dress codes for dinner on a cruise. But I don't think NCL has provided us with a viable solution. Searching around for a place to dine with the "shortest" waiting time on NCL does not solve the "dinner hassle."
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Old October 2nd, 2007, 01:38 PM
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I can't stand the commercial either.
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Old October 2nd, 2007, 02:51 PM
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I have to offer a somewhat opposing view. While the NCL commercial does go to the extreme it does emphasize a unique difference that NCL has over other lines.

I have cruised many times and I have often been frustrated by the herd mentality. Everyone rushing to the dining room at the same time and if you are fifteen minutes late the doors "could" be shut and you will be relegated to the buffet and feel the wrath of your tablemates for the next couple of meals for making them wait.

I know a number of cruisers who strongly dislike the "herd" mentality that many mainstream cruise lines do foster with meals, activities and leaving the ship. NCL was the first mainstream line that actually let you "stay" in your cabin and eat a real breakfast on the morning of disembarkation. They also led the way with alternative dining: Le Bistro.

I have had experiences where, on a late or overnight stay in a port, I had to make the decision to rush back to the ship, eat on shore, hit the buffet or order room service because I "HAD" to make my assigned dinner time. Again, if I didn't "warn or forewarn" the dining room I would again inconvenience the rest of the table.

BTW: Just about any ship with a Promenade deck has shuffleboard and I have seen many people playing it. It's more prevalent on longer cruises and too popular on Caribbean cruises.

NCL also offers you the options of eating in a variety of places instead of the same room and the same seat every night and eat the five or six choices on what's on the menu or falling back to the overcooked steak or salmon. With NCL you can have an option to either make a reservation at an alternative restaurant or see if you can get a table at one if you don't want to do the regular dining room.

NCL isn't for everyone but neither is Carnival or Royal Caribbean. Their commercials don't reflect too much "reality" either. The cabins are always suites or balconies, the wave runners are additional cost and everyone is "cute". The Royal Caribbean ads remind me of a "Cruise on Crack"

Do I exclusively cruise NCL. Heck no but there is a difference and that difference can be a good or bad thing. I think it's good. It depends on how you look at it.

Take care,
Mike
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Old October 2nd, 2007, 04:01 PM
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Like almost ALL ads you have to take the NCL ad with the thought it's JUST as ad. How many ads really show the whole truth about whatever it is for.

But it does do the one thing it is supposed to do and that is get people to talk about NCL and at least think about going on a cruise with them. Especially those that don't want so much structure to thier vacations.
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Old October 2nd, 2007, 09:07 PM
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I would like to see NCL show in BIG letters what thier "freestyle" cruising is really like. I read the fine print. If you read it enough it states that most of the "freestyle" restaurants require reservations a day in advance. Now, I don't know about you, but I can't tell what I want to eat a full day before.

I also looked at the price and Carnival and RCI have much cheaper prices for cabins. For the price if a standard deck 6-10 balcony cabin on Carnival you get a low deck oceanview cabin that is so tiny you have to leave the cabin to think.

I am not partial to one line, each has it's virtues and features, but making cruising look regimented, no, it is not...
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Old October 3rd, 2007, 11:47 AM
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As this thread is about cruise line TV ads, and not about the merits of any line, I'd like to comment that all cruise line TV ads are pretty bad! Many, like the NCL ad, are also misleading. Big ship lines that do not have NCL's "freestyle" are not as the ad depicts. And NCL has not fully solved the problem for those who don't want "dining schedules." To fully solve that problem (for those who find it a problem) it is necessary to shell out a little more cash and book one of the premium or luxury lines that offer fully "open time and seating dining."

Carnival ran a TV ad a while back claiming its cruises were "just like an all-inclusive land resort that went from place to place." All you Carnival fans (who have also been to a true all-inclusive land resort) will quickly recognize that Carnival is NOTHING like such a resort. Such resorts include all beverages and tips -- all of which are extra on Carnival.

Then, there is the current RCI TV ad. It's in a class by itself, including the song to which nobody can understand the words.
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Old October 3rd, 2007, 02:32 PM
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In my experiences on two fully Freestyle NCL ships, Dawn and Star, I haven't had a problem with a last minute reservation. I have had to wait until the end of service or wait a half hour for a table but have always been seated at one of the restaurants. I can recall three occasions that I did this. You may have to make a couple of phone calls or visit the restaurant but it may be worth it.

Yes, some of the alternative restaurants are additional charge and that is a bummer but I found that many NCL cruises are less than Carnival or Royal Caribbean.

You can go with a ultra-premium/niche line such as Oceania or the "new" Azamra (which has yet to define itself) with open seating but the alternative dining restaurants are still reservation only and are additional charge. Crystal is still traditional and borders on ultra-premium and luxury.

If you go with a Luxury line you will get the true open seating and freestyle type of experience but, even with the NCL alternate dining charges you will, almost always, pay more unless you book a high end suite on NCL.

Take care,
Mike
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Old October 3rd, 2007, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: NCL Runs Vile Commerical Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougR.
While watching Dancing with the Stars last night, I noticed that NCL repeated the vile commercial depicting crusing (other than NCL) to be a highly regimented, tightly scheduled vacation. It depicts passengers forced into crowded lockstep in dining and activities. While I believe that NCL has every right to tout their "freestyle" cruising, I believe they have done damage to the image of cruisers and the cruise industry with this defamatory commercial. It does nothing but reinforce the stereotype of cruising to be a highly regimented and claustrophobic experience. The images depict shuffleboard as the main activity forced upon the cruisers (the only shuffleboard game I saw was on the Celebrity Zenith and it was a bunch of inebriated 20 somthings playing what could only be described as "Combat Shuffleboard" )

I have seen postings on these boards from posters asking for help with a resistant spouse, relative or friend who cites regimentation and feelings of confinement as their excuse not to cruise. This commerical only adds ammo to thier resistance.

NCL should be ashamed of themselves. The only reason I would consider cruising NCL is their Hawaiian offerings as Marj wants to take one, otherwise I would avoid them like poison.

Come and get me NCL cheerleaders!!!!
I think it is hilarious, I laugh everytime I see it. Furthermore I could care less what the non cruisers think after seeing the ad, I'm still CRUIZIN! 8)
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Old October 5th, 2007, 12:15 AM
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If you are going to cruise NCL in Hawaii you are going to be awfully disappointed. NCL for the rest of the cruising world is great. NCL Hawaii is brutal. Bad service, surly crew etc etc etc. They really give NCL a bad name.
Freestyle cruising is great. Remember, you are on holiday, you paid for it so why do you want people telling you when to eat etc.
I do like the other lines too but I like the choices I have with NCL
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Old October 5th, 2007, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M
The Royal Caribbean ads remind me of a "Cruise on Crack"
I always chuckle at the Royal Caribbean TV ads with the Iggy Pop song "Lust For Life". Didn't anybody read the lyrics?

Cheers, Aidan
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Old October 5th, 2007, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M
The Royal Caribbean ads remind me of a "Cruise on Crack"
I always chuckle at the Royal Caribbean TV ads with the Iggy Pop song "Lust For Life". Didn't anybody read the lyrics?

Cheers, Aidan
Aidan: I too have always thought it a bit ironic that they would choose Lust for Life as the theme song. That is why I said it "reminds me of a Cruise on Crack."

In the old American Bandstand days, I would give it a 70. It's got a great beat but the lyrics aren't really very good. Especially for your corporate ad campaign.

Take care,
Mike (Who is now going to try and hypnotize a chicken) you'll understand if you know the song.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 11:06 AM
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BTW, where does one find the lyrics to the "Royal Caribbean Song?" I can't understand a word of that song.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 11:52 AM
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Here they are folks! After reading these, the NCL ad looks pretty good.


Here comes johnny yen again
With the liquor and drugs
And the flesh machine
Hes gonna do another strip tease.
Hey man, whered ya get that lotion?
Ive been hurting since Ive bought the gimmick
About something called love
Yeah, something called love.
Well, thats like hypnotizing chickens.

Well, Im just a modern guy
Of course, Ive had it in the ear before.
I have a lust for life
cause of a lust for life.

Im worth a million in prizes
With my torture film
Drive a gto
Wear a uniform
All on a government loan.
Im worth a million in prizes
Yeah, Im through with sleeping on the sidewalk
No more beating my brains
No more beating my brains
With liquor and drugs
With liquor and drugs.

Well, Im just a modern guy
Of course, Ive had it in my ear before
Well, Ive a lust for life (lust for life)
cause of a lust for life (lust for life, oooo)
I got a lust for life (oooo)
Got a lust for life (oooo)
Oh, a lust for life (oooo)
Oh, a lust for life (oooo)
A lust for life (oooo)
I got a lust for life (oooo)
Got a lust for life.

Well, Im just a modern guy
Of course, Ive had it in my ear before
Well, Ive a lust for life
cause Ive a lust for life.

Here comes johnny yen again
With the liquor and drugs
And the flesh machine
Hes gonna do another strip tease.
Hey man, whered ya get that lotion?
Your skin starts itching once you buy the gimmick
About something called love
Love, love, love
Well, thats like hypnotizing chickens.

Well, Im just a modern guy
Of course, Ive had it in the ear before
And Ive a lust for life (lust for life)
cause Ive a lust for life (lust for life)
Got a lust for life
Yeah, a lust for life
I got a lust for life
A lust for life
Got a lust for life
Yeah a lust for life
I got a lust for life
Lust for life
Lust for life
Lust for life
Lust for life
Lust for life
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Old October 5th, 2007, 11:56 AM
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I guess no one from RC ever looked at the words. If they did shame on them.

And yes afte knowing that the NCL ad looks very tame.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 01:48 PM
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reverendjeff:

A big Thanks from my town of Yukon OK, to your northwest! Who's going to win the OU Texas game tomorrow?

Those lyrics are hideous for a TV ad! I'll bet the brass at RCI are just like me -- never understood a word.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 02:05 PM
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To be fair to RCI they only play the first line and the refrain, over and over, plus the music. The rest of the lyrics are not in the ad.

"Here comes Johnny Yen again."
I got a lust for life.

They just edited it down and used those lyrics and the strong beat and music.

It's like Microsoft using the Rolling Stones "Start me up" for their initial Windows '98 campaign. There are a couple of lines in that song that are not rated PG.

Take care,
Mike
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Old October 24th, 2007, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: NCL Runs Vile Commerical Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougR.
While watching Dancing with the Stars last night, I noticed that NCL repeated the vile commercial depicting crusing (other than NCL) to be a highly regimented, tightly scheduled vacation. It depicts passengers forced into crowded lockstep in dining and activities. While I believe that NCL has every right to tout their "freestyle" cruising, I believe they have done damage to the image of cruisers and the cruise industry with this defamatory commercial. It does nothing but reinforce the stereotype of cruising to be a highly regimented and claustrophobic experience. The images depict shuffleboard as the main activity forced upon the cruisers (the only shuffleboard game I saw was on the Celebrity Zenith and it was a bunch of inebriated 20 somthings playing what could only be described as "Combat Shuffleboard" )

I have seen postings on these boards from posters asking for help with a resistant spouse, relative or friend who cites regimentation and feelings of confinement as their excuse not to cruise. This commerical only adds ammo to thier resistance.

NCL should be ashamed of themselves. The only reason I would consider cruising NCL is their Hawaiian offerings as Marj wants to take one, otherwise I would avoid them like poison.

Come and get me NCL cheerleaders!!!!
I don't care myself-I have never cruised them becuase I have never heard anything good about them. Carnival and RCI are not great lines-beut at least they do have some good things about them-I don't believe NCL has anything good- and their prices?????? why in the world would I pay that much money for a mediorce cruiseline? if I am spending that kind of money I am going on Celebrity. At least Carnival realizes the value of their line and prices accordingly.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 11:13 AM
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I find the commercial to be over the top. However it does get ncl's point across.

I have cruised on NCL America in Hawaii. I hated freestyle dining. Just the freestyle aspect alone will keep me off of NCL's cruises. The wait, the bad food, the choas, the slow service -- way too much work for a vacation.

IMHO, the formal dining times of traditional cruise dinners are one of the highlights of cruising. Yes, it can get inconvenient on some days when you have to rush to dinner. However, it is so nice to sit down to eat (even if you had to rush), discuss your days events with your tablemates and have waiter/servers who already know what your preferences are.

I believe this is one of the aspects of cruising that sets it apart from a regular vacation.

Many cruise commercials are bad. However, my all time favorite is the Celebrity commercial where the woman is standing on the raised level thanking everyone. It looks like an award acceptance speech and then the camera pulls back and you see she is standing on the staircase in the dining room of a Celebrity cruise ship.

That commercial makes me smile and chuckle every time (the actress that plays that lady does it flawlessly).
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Old October 24th, 2007, 04:24 PM
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I'm not a big NCL fan (never cruised with them, so I really have nothing specifically against them) but I think the ads are quite original.
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Old October 25th, 2007, 12:55 AM
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The NCL marketing people came up with the ad, the beancounters counted the results and said it worked. Thus, the ad and similar ads will continue in the future. Differentiating your product in a crowded market is a good stategy and that is what NCL is doing. More power to them.

P.S. For the record, I am a Celebrity type Cruiser
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Old November 6th, 2007, 10:44 PM
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I am sorry but I have got to jump into this fray. Without a doubt the commercial is terrible and annoying, BUT I have cruised, Carnval, RCCL and NCL and they all have strengths and weaknesses.
Whoever it was claiming "Carnival and RCI have much cheaper prices for cabins." is way off the mark. I have booked two future cruises on NCL one is a 5 day cruise with a mini suite (over 285 sq. ft) for $599 for d/h and I and the kids were only $209 each. This on a newer ship. Had I chosen to stick with an inside cabin it would have been $1100 total, that's less than what I spent on a 5 day cruise on the Sensation out of New Orleans in January 2005. I also booked a 14 day cruise for March 2008 got an oversized inside Cabin (over 200 sq. ft) for four of us for $2500(thats $44 per day, per person) . I have cruised on the Sun and the Spirit previously and got great deals both times on the Spirit out of NYC March 2006 I didn't have to pay anything for the kids except taxes, so it was almost free to take them along (whoever heard of that during spring break time?), I loved the variety of being able to choose what cuisine we wantedeach night, and also you are not required to book 24 hours in advance, you may only make reservations for the current day and the next day, contrary to what a couple of people posted on this thread. The food is good in the dining rooms, but even better in the speciality restaurants. The good news is the surcharges are not too high in most of the restaurants, Less than Carnival's Supper Clubs in most cases. NCL also only charges me half the tips for the children, which enables me to tip the camp counselors a little extra. I can tell you that NCL's kids program are every bit as good as Carnivals, and that is not a slam on Carnival as they do a great job with the kids too. We enjoyed the Murder Mystery dinner and the talent on the Sun was the best I've seen on a ship so far.
On the Spirit we ate in a diffent venue every night, and Windows dining room is the most beautiful views I have ever seen on a ship. While I have read a few reviews and people stated they had a wait to be seated at peak times in the dining rooms, that has never been my experience.

Now with regard to the NCLA thing, I have heard very few positive comments about that whole debaucle in Hawaii, and think NCL would do well to scrap that whole American flagged ship thing as an experiment that has gone terribly wrong and re-deploy those ships somewhere else.

NCL has some issues, all of the lines do. But I have always gotten a great value out of every cruise we've taken. Carnival, Rccl or NCL, it's all good. But the commercials sucketh.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 09:50 AM
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The commercials for NCL are original and set them apart from others. I do not mind them at all. I have enjoyed my past sailings with NCL and the "freestyle" concept. I prefer to have the same seat and wait staff each night. I would sail NCL again in a heartbeat. I look at price when choosing, but also the ports.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babe ruth
As this thread is about cruise line TV ads, and not about the merits of any line, I'd like to comment that all cruise line TV ads are pretty bad! Many, like the NCL ad, are also misleading. Big ship lines that do not have NCL's "freestyle" are not as the ad depicts. And NCL has not fully solved the problem for those who don't want "dining schedules." To fully solve that problem (for those who find it a problem) it is necessary to shell out a little more cash and book one of the premium or luxury lines that offer fully "open time and seating dining."

Carnival ran a TV ad a while back claiming its cruises were "just like an all-inclusive land resort that went from place to place." All you Carnival fans (who have also been to a true all-inclusive land resort) will quickly recognize that Carnival is NOTHING like such a resort. Such resorts include all beverages and tips -- all of which are extra on Carnival.

Then, there is the current RCI TV ad. It's in a class by itself, including the song to which nobody can understand the words.
I have to beg to differ. I have experienced an all inclusive land resort in Mexico (Moon Palace) and it didn't have the entertainment that Carnival has on it. The food wasn't as good either. The power went out and I had ot climb stairs to get to and fro. No a/c because of the lack of power. Yes, the land resort has larger rooms. The drinks were free but watered down. I resorted to drinking wine from a bottle. At the land resort, you have one view. On Carnival you have multiple views because the scenery changes. This applies to all cruise lines. I think a cruise vacation is much better than a land vacation.
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Courage and perserverance have a magical talisman; before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into the air.

Pick your company wisely! Hang around people who are going to help you become all God created you to be.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 06:56 PM
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Just cause you guys said NCL was cheaper and I felt like it. I did a comparsion.
The CM group cruise to Hawaii 10/01/07 and the NCL cruise on 10/05/07. The CM cruise is 14 days the NCL cruise is 7 days. The CM cruise starts in LA so it's possible for some people to drive to port. The NCL cruise starts in Hawaii so unless you have a magic car you have to fly in. These prices are without airfare.

CM Cruise Outside Double w/Private Balcony: BB & BC $2,179.00 pp. All rates include port charges & taxes. You also receive $50 per person shipboard credit (1st & 2nd person in a cabin only), a cocktail party with the Cruise Mates plus a tote bag. NCL Oceanview Stateroom with balcony cat BC $1299+ $154.14(tax and fees). So NCL 1299+154.14/7=$207.59 per day CM 2179/14=$155.64 per day not including the shipboard credit. It appears a CM Group Cruise is the best way to go.http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=585491 I pay less per day I don't have to fly and I get a longer cruise.
Too bad I'm broke.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 07:55 PM
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Sorry but have to say that comparing a 7 day inter-island cruise to a 14 day pacific crossing is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. I have usually found my daily rate to be lower on a longer cruise vs. shorter.

It did make me think a bit though and so I went and compared more similar cruises between Carnival and NCL, here are some things I found.

December 1st, 7 day cruise Caribbean both from Miami
NCL SUN $399
Carnival Triumph $579

2nd week of Feb. Caribbean
9 day NCL Jewel $699
8 day Carnival Liberty $759

3rd week of February Carribbean
9 day NCL Pearl $719
8 Day Carnival Miracle $749

I actually like Carnival and NCL, but if I want to squeeze in 3 cruises per year, I do take advantage of the extremely competitive pricing from NCL. This year we'll have take two NCL cruises and one Carnival. If I were to compare our Triumph cruise to the Sun, the sun wins hands down, even though we had a balcony on the Triumph and a lowly inside cabin on the Sun. The only thing I miss is seeing familiar faces serving me each night in the dining room. But I see a lot more of the Maitre D on NCL. Strangely enough it actually made a huge difference on our last NCL cruise. He really bent over backwards to take good care of us and managed to make an appearance at nearly every venue I dined at.
In all truthfullness though, if I were going to Hawaii, NCLA would be the last place I would choose regardless of their price. It is a mess.

The one thing about NCL I absolutely detest is the disorganization of their organization. The people who work in their call centers are less than clueless. I have actually emailed the CEO of the company telling how many hundreds of dollars I would not be spending with them on services, excursions and ammenities because they made it too damn hard to do business with them. He did contact me and make amends for the minions and I was satisfies with the peace offering. Generally once we get on board everything is groovy.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 10:14 AM
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I understand what you are saying Beenie, however Hawaii is a different thing. There are two basic cruises to Hawaii. One is longer and goes across the ocean and the other is shorter and you fly in. So let me add some other facts just for Hawaii.

The CM cruise leaves out of LA so I would drive it so parking is $12 per day $168. Then gas 12 gallon fill up twice at $3.00 per gallon $72. To Long Beach Port is $312 so round trip that is $480.

NCL cruise I would have to fly in an additional $567.60 pp.

Total cost CM 2 people $4,670
Total cost NCL 2 people $4,041.48

For the extra $628.50 for 2 people I get an extra 7 nights and the plus of not having to deal with an airport. Now this is just Hawaii, because of the driving vs airport thing. People in Southern California it's even clearer because they don't have the $312 transportant and parking cost they can just hire a shuttle.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 11:02 AM
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Even if I had to pay more to choose Carnival or basically any line except for NCLA for a Hawaii cruise, I would. It is very fortunate it is less expensive, that is a bonus. I feel that way simply because NCLA has gotten such poor reviews. Also, NCLA ia a line where it does not pay to book in advance, The November 12th Pride of Hawaii sailing balcony is selling for $699 right now and are in that range for sailings over the next 90 days. Also don't forget you are getting a group rate through Cruisemates. I also bet that the price on the Carnival Cruise will stay about the same or increase as sailing draws nearer, where the NCLA cruise will historically drop in price.

But for Caribbean Cruises, it's hard to beat the deals I've gotten on NCL. I am not a blind loyalist to any line, but to completely write off the value of any one line because their commercials are annoying could cost you a lot of money and some really cool experiences (when I say "you", I am speaking in general and not addressing anyone specifically) I have never had a bad cruise, but each of them have their annoyances, and each have their highlights.

Just for the record I have never sailed NCLA, nor do I intend to. I always view NCLA as a separate entity that is affiliated with NCL yet seperate and different, much in the same way the Carnival Corp. owns P&0, CCL, Princess, Holland America, and Costa whatever else they've got these days.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 05:09 PM
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Never thought I would hear an American complain about adverts, comercialism or things that may be misleading in what they represent

HELLO, is that not the ethos of what advertising is about and the basis of a lot of things? Read it, see it....so it must be true e
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