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  #61 (permalink)  
Old February 4th, 2008, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ainsley
i think too old would be above 30. but thats my opinion because i wouldnt wanna see some really old people (no offense) trying to do what teens are doing. i would be kinda grossed out. thats why i dont wanna turn 18. and i personally like clean cut guys that dont act like thugs. i want a gentleman. and if i have to wait 10 years i will.
Sorry you are wrong! Being over 30 DH and I can dance very well and yes grind very well on the dance floor too!

Don't count the 30 plus crowd out just yet!

Some of us over 30 really dance well and can out dance the teens!

This song is always playing in my areas clubs! great ginding song!
I'm expecting to hear this song on my next cruise. Last cruise Justin Timberlakes Sexy Back was big!


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Old February 4th, 2008, 07:37 AM
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Now if you are over 30 and you think this is grinding please stay away from the dance floor.

This couple has a great song playing (usher) but no rhythm!

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Old February 4th, 2008, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecruisequeen
Now if you are over 30 and you think this is grinding please stay away from the dance floor.

This couple has a great song playing (usher) but no rhythm!


CQ, LMAO,

I think that's the most excitement that couple ever had in their life!
at one point I think she said, "he was very good, very vigorous" LMAO


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  #64 (permalink)  
Old February 4th, 2008, 07:42 AM
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So they can't grind but they are having fun!
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Old February 4th, 2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Most of the teenage "hook ups" are with young people who are too young to have ever had as much unsupervised freedom. They tend to want to do "everything" on the ship and are at the age where peer pressure is a terrible thing.

It is not particularly cute to see some 13-15 year old girl being groped by a equally young man. Most times, the parents have no idea what their children are up to and are just happy that Sally and Tommy have found some friends on the ship and seem to be having a good time.

I agree with the OP to a degree that it is inappropriate. It is also the road to absolute disaster. If hot honey winks and blinks at the wrong young man, things can get out of hand really quickly. If young man feels up the wrong man's daughter, well. . . . . if it was your daughter in the corner with that young man, what would you do?

Don't forget to add readily available alcohol to the mix.
Many many years ago my sister inlaw's best friend got pregnant on her senior trip to Myrtle Beach.

All the poor girl knew was the guy's first name and that he lived somewhere in North Carolina-so now there is man around 56 who has a 38 year old son and does not even know of his son's existance.


But worse then that, is the 38 year old man who has no idea who his father is. All because his mother drank a little too much on a beach one night and "hooked up" with a guy she did not know.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old February 4th, 2008, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momofmeg
Many many years ago my sister inlaw's best friend got pregnant on her senior trip to Myrtle Beach.

All the poor girl knew was the guy's first name and that he lived somewhere in North Carolina-so now there is man around 56 who has a 38 year old son and does not even know of his son's existance.


But worse then that, is the 38 year old man who has no idea who his father is. All because his mother drank a little too much on a beach one night and "hooked up" with a guy she did not know.
Wow!!! The ramifications of this situation are mind-boggling.

Does the young man know the circumstances of his conception? If so, how has he handled this all his life? Did he at least get a decent stepdad?
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old February 4th, 2008, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Quote:
Originally Posted by momofmeg
Many many years ago my sister inlaw's best friend got pregnant on her senior trip to Myrtle Beach.

All the poor girl knew was the guy's first name and that he lived somewhere in North Carolina-so now there is man around 56 who has a 38 year old son and does not even know of his son's existance.


But worse then that, is the 38 year old man who has no idea who his father is. All because his mother drank a little too much on a beach one night and "hooked up" with a guy she did not know.
Wow!!! The ramifications of this situation are mind-boggling.

Does the young man know the circumstances of his conception? If so, how has he handled this all his life? Did he at least get a decent stepdad?
Though all of this is sort of wandering off the topic of the original post....
Situations like this are certainly bad, but I can't imagine how large the numbers are for "responsible adults" who found themselves in the same predicament after meeting strangers in bars. It's not just a "teen" problem.
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Old February 4th, 2008, 07:50 PM
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"Carolina-so now there is man around 56 who has a 38 year old son and does not even know of his son's existance"

I'm sorry, I'm not 100% sure exactly how this applies to me. But perhaps its in reference to my use of the term hooking up in my original post. When I think of people "hooking up" i'd assume the most of what theyre doing is kissing. I know thats my limit, period with anyone regardless of how well I know them, because quite frankly I have a future ahead of me. I have a full academic scolarship to a 4 year university, i'm number 3 in my class and I have a DJ contract with every school in my district. I'm not doing anything to compromise that or anyone elses future either. Teens my age who are having sex have no idea what theyre doing, but its not in my plan.


As far as the grinding "age" topic. I don't think there is such an "age limit" for things like that. In fact, I think the discussion on the matter is stupid. Adults are mature enough to make the decision as to whether or not they want to dnce like that and the final decision is at their descretion. Whatever makes you happy is what you should do. I'm 17 but i own the largest DJ company in my tri-county area and work hundreds of events a year and see people of all ages dancing every kind of way imaginable, and adults are perfectly capable of dancing however hey please.
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Old February 4th, 2008, 07:58 PM
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DJ,
I must say that I am comforted by your maturity here.

I read your post for new folks, too, and it was very well done. Many adults could learn from the FAQ as well.

The whole "hooking up" threads really have deteriorated and I am partly to blame.

I do stand by the statement that anyone, including teens, who participates in such careless activities chose to do it and does so at their own risk. They (nor their parents ) shall not come crying to authorities that they were not taken care of.

I would like to see you someday perhaps become a moderator here for the teens/young adults. I think you have a great deal to offer.

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Old February 5th, 2008, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ainsley
I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything that has been said, but I am 17 and I can speak for myself. Each of you were a teenager at one time you had fun you had your time. Do each of you not wish that you go back to no responsibilities and nothing but a party life? Thats what we have now. I have been on 6 cruises and on none of them have I hooked up with anyone. It all depends on the teenager and what they were raised around. I was raised with respect for myself and making out with 10 different guys all in one night is not on my "to do" list. I love to dance, and right now grinding is our type of dance. Its fun. We do what we want and adults do what they want. Personally I dont want to turn 18 because the day I do I can no longer go into Club O2 and then I will be seeing a bunch of adults in the adults club drunk and trying to grind which sometimes looks like they are pole dancing. It doesnt matter whoever tries to put me down by what I said but I take my actions serious. I have a future and I intend to live it up my last year of highschool.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old February 5th, 2008, 09:08 PM
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First of all I can't believe I just sat through reading three pages of this thread

I have to say at first I didn't think this was a very productive debate, mostly due to lack of respect in some cases. But I am happy with how I think we have come to a sort of understanding.

It is true that these things happen on cruises, both with teens and adults. On my last cruise aboard Carnival Freedom it was my first O2 experience. I'm just 17 myself and my first cruise didnt have O2 so this was an interesting experience. I really didn't realize how O2 in some cases was just a place for teens to meet and try to sneak drinking in someones cabin, or try to hookup with other teens.

Is there anything wrong with that? No. Was everyone there looking for that? Of course not.

Heck during one of the CD's talks he was talking to "happy couples" in the audience and he picked out one in the front row and asked how long they had been together and they said they just met! Now they were quite close and the CD joked that they were both Travel Agents since on our cruise there were quite a few. Just shows there is room for work and play no matter what age. No harm done there! I'd just be embarrassed!

And as background here I'm 17, cruised twice, have two booked for 2008 (so far!). I worked in a travel agency last year through a school placement co-op so I'm very connected with the industry. I'm actually leading a group of several cabins with the groups department for this summer and its coming together great. I plan to attend the University of Western Ontario next year to study Commercial Aviation Management and work part time at their student run travel agency. Glad to see other productive teens posting here. Hope this helps show that a lot of us are more mature than meets the eye!

As far as my 18th birthday approaching is concerned, I'm not too worried about not being able to go to O2 anymore. It really isn't my favourite way to spend my time I've found. Great that they offer it but it isn't for everyone. I'll stick to trying my best to do everything else possible while on-board and taking in all the sights!

Think there will be much of an O2 crowd on my May Glacier Bay trip?
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Old February 6th, 2008, 10:33 AM
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"We are the people, our parents warned us about" 8)

and if you are old enough to know this one....


Paradise by the Dashboardlight

I remember every little thing
As if it happened only yesterday
Parking by the lake
And there was not another car in sight
And I never had a girl
Looking any better than you did
And all the kids at school
They were wishing they were me that night

And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
Glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon, hold on tight
C'mon, hold on tight

Though it's cold and lonely in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light

GIRL:
Ain't no doubt about it we were doubly blessed
'Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely dressed


BOTH:
Ain't no doubt about it
Baby got to go out and shout it
Ain't no doubt about it
We were doubly blessed

BOY: 'Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely dressed

Baby don'cha hear my heart
You got it drowing out the radio
I've been waiting so long
For you to come along and have some fun
And I gotta let you know
No you're never gonna regret it
So open up your eyes, I got a big surprise
It'll feel all right
Well I wanna make you motor run

And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
Glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon, Hold on tight
C'mon, Hold on tight

BOTH:
Though it's cols and lonely in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light

You got to do what you can
And let Mother Nature do the rest
Ain't no doubt about it
We were doubly blessed
'Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely

We're gonna go all the way tonight
We're gonna go all the way
And tonight's the night

RADIO BROADCAST:
OK, here we go, we got a real pressure cooker going here
Two down, nobody on, no score, bottom of the ninth
There's the wind-up, and there it is
A line shot up the middle, look at him go
This boy can really fly
He's rounding first and really turning it on now
He's not letting up at all, he's gonna try for second
The ball is bobbled out in the center
And here's the throw and what a throw
He's gonna slide in head first
Here he comes, he's out
No, wait, safe, safe at second base
This kid really makes things happen out there
Batter steps up to the plate
Here's the pitch, he's going
Amd what a jump he's got
He's trying for third
Here's the throw
It's in the dirt, safe a third
Holy cow, stolen base
He's taking a pretty big lead out there
Almost daring them to pick him off
The pitcher glances over, winds-up and it's bunted
Bunted down the third base line
The suicide squeeze is on
Here he comes, squeeze play, it's gonna be close
Here's the throw, here's the play at the plate
Holy cow, I think he's gonna make it

GIRL:
Stop right there
I gotta know right now
Before we go any further

Do you love me
Will you love me forever
Do you need me
Will you make me so happy
For the rest of my life
Will you take me away
And will you make me your wife
Do you love me
Will you love me forever
Do you need me
Will you make me so happy
For the rest of my life
Will you take me away
And will you make me your wife

I gotta know right now
Before we go any further
Do you love me
Will you love me forever

BOY:
Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you an answer in the morning

Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you an answer in the morning

Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you an answer in the morning

GIRL:
I gotta know right now
Do you love me
Will you love me forever
Do you need me
Will you make me so happy
For the rest of my life
Will you take me away
And will you make me your wife
I gotta know right now
Before we go any further
Do you love me
And will you love me forever

BOY:
Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you an answer in the morning
Let me sleep on it

GIRL:
Will you love me forever

BOY:
Let me sleep on it

GIRL
Will you love me forever

BOY:
I couldn't take it any longer
Lord I was crazed
And when the feeling came upon me
Like a tidal wave
I started swearing to my god
And on my mother's grave
That I would love you to the end of time
I swore I would love you to the end of time

So now I'm praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
'Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don't think that I can really survive
I'll never break my promise or forget my vow
But God only knows what I can do right now
I'm praying for the end of time
So I can end my time with you

BOY:
It was long ago and it was far away,
And it was so much better than it is today.

GIRL:
It never felt so good, It never felt so right
And we were glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife.



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Old February 6th, 2008, 10:38 AM
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"We are the people, our parents warned us about"


Ahhhh Jimmy Buffett

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Old February 6th, 2008, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil&Liz
"We are the people, our parents warned us about"


Ahhhh Jimmy Buffett

Phil & Liz
Yes and a great song. The other is a classic and I have sung it at kareoke on ship a couple times. It is hard to find a girl that knows all the words and how to sing it.

I plan on singing "A Pirate Looks at Forty" again next cruise.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 10:46 AM
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The song is MeatLoaf if my recollection of the late 70's early 80's is still intact !!

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Old February 6th, 2008, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil&Liz
The song is MeatLoaf if my recollection of the late 70's early 80's is still intact !!

Phil & Liz
Correct of course. Most of his songs were about teenage love and hooking up. That is why it is relevant.
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Old February 15th, 2008, 09:48 PM
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I'm a teenager, and I find it repulsive to see other teens intensely making out ANYWHERE, not just on a cruise.
Of course, everyone knows it happens, but it's uncomfortable for others if you proceed to do it in public.

But here is what I think:

Teens should go ahead and have fun on your cruise, but keep it private.

When I went on my cruise, I had a lil romance with someone, but it was on the top deck at past midnight. The most 'company' we had was an occasional jogger. I'll never forgot the moments we spent together.

Plus, they seemed so much more meaningful since we were alone.
Teens who make out in the hot tub or elevators are simply advertising for people.

Or otherwise, they might just be caught at a bad time ;]

Give us a break.
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Old February 16th, 2008, 12:29 AM
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I have been reading through this thread, and thought my parents were on here.

They use to say the same things about us. Except we listened to Devil worship music, and the Beatles and Elvis would send us straight to hell.

I have two teens sons. They have now been on 5 cruises, and they have been taught to be respectful, and rule abiding. I do not worry about their behavior on a cruise ship, or I would not let them out of my sight.

But guess what..... They have kissed a girl, or two. They do the modern dancing, and they hang out with other kids their age.

Times have not changed that much, except kids today are smarter than we were, because they have to be. We had to worry about unwanted babies, they have to worry about dieing by having sex with the wrong person. We knew about a few drugs, but didn't know how dangerous they were, they have all the information, and more, and have to worry about having something put in their drinks.

Sure, sit on the Lido deck at night and watch the teens. They are laughing, kissing, and chasing each other. They are flirting, and the guys are bragging about what great, strong men they are.

Sound familiar? It was us, once upon a time.
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Old February 16th, 2008, 09:06 AM
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Default Curfew for Junior Cruisers

I just got off of the RCCL Majesty. They have posted on their Cruise Compass (schedule) that 1:00 a.m. is curfew for "junior Cruisers".

I am not sure what constitutes a "junior cruiser" but whomever they are, they have to be in their cabins by 1:00 a.m.

I come down hard on both parents and the young folks but I found the 1:00 curfew a bit over-reaching if a junior cruiser would include anyone over the age of about 14 or so. Part of the cruise experience for the young people is the ability to stay up and out all night long, most times doing nothing more than eating pizza and ice cream. However on the Majesty, it is a big no no.

I have never seen a curfew on any ship before and wonder if this is some sort of test to see how it is received by the masses before it becomes RCCL's fleet-wide policy.

It smacks of big brother-ism.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old February 16th, 2008, 09:22 AM
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This has been standard for a long time. Not just on the Majesty. Junior Cruiser is 17 and under and it is a good idea. Kids don't need to be running around out on deck after that.
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Old February 16th, 2008, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave the Wave
This has been standard for a long time. Not just on the Majesty. Junior Cruiser is 17 and under and it is a good idea. Kids don't need to be running around out on deck after that.
Is it posted on the Cruise Compass on other ships? I didn't notice it on the Navigator.

What is the penalty if a teen is caught after hours?
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Old February 16th, 2008, 12:07 PM
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RCI has had the curfew in place for almost 2 years I believe.

It came about after several holiday sailings, where teens went goofy, throwing furniture overboard etc.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 02:02 AM
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Ah yes, youth. I remember it well………..

Too well, in fact.

And I’ll tell you what – my daughter isn’t dating until she’s 21 – and then I’m going with them.

This “hooking up? thing has been going on since the dawn of time. Had it not, none of us would be here………

And so, the youth of our world, I understand you. It wasn’t that long ago that I was one of you.

But not with MY daughter………….

And as long as you can handle that, we’ll get along just fine.

And what’s up with this bumping and grinding thing? Are there too many growth hormones in your milk? Your generation seems to have grown up way too soon. You’re too far ahead of schedule, and you lack the maturity to deal with it.

Whatever happened to conducting ourselves with dignity and honor? Whatever happened to conducting ourselves with class?

Your time will come. As it always has………

Whatever ails you, you will survive. My generation did. My generation survived the Gulf of Tonkin, Mai Lai, the Tet Offensive, Kent State, and over 58,000 lost.

Fifty-eight thousand……… I’m going to let you ponder a number of that magnitude for a moment……….

Do you remember what you were doing when you were 15?

I do. I remember getting my learner’s permit to drive. I remember junior high school. And I remember April 30, 1975. I remember watching the United States Marines evacuate the United States Embassy in Saigon in the early morning hours of that Spring day. My country, the mightiest nation in human history, had not only lost over 58,000 of its sons and daughters, but had just lost the first war in its history.

Eight months before, I watched on TV as President Nixon, under threat of impeachment, resigned as President of the United States.

So you’re under stress, and need to let off steam? And the bump-and-grind is your way? Are you kidding me with this??

You want respect? Show me that you deserve it. Conduct yourself with class and dignity, and then we’ll talk. It’s up to you………

Dean
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Old February 17th, 2008, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuki
RCI has had the curfew in place for almost 2 years I believe.

It came about after several holiday sailings, where teens went goofy, throwing furniture overboard etc.
There is no mention of a curfew in the Navigator of the Seas Cruise Compass.

I got the impression that the Majesty of the Seas may be a test ship for some new policies. They had a no smoking night in the casino on the Majesty. Never saw that before.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 05:18 PM
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thecruisegueen - loved your u-tube videos!! I love that music too!! It's seems to be a little too preachy on this post. Has it really changed so much?!! I can remember dancing to Marvin Gaye's Sexual Healing - and I don't think the big "they" liked that either. Find out what works for you and live life!!
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Old February 18th, 2008, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormy53
thecruisegueen - loved your u-tube videos!! I love that music too!! It's seems to be a little too preachy on this post. Has it really changed so much?!! I can remember dancing to Marvin Gaye's Sexual Healing - and I don't think the big "they" liked that either. Find out what works for you and live life!!
Yes enjoy the music and dance that you like and live life! 8)
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Old February 18th, 2008, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mean Dean
Ah yes, youth. I remember it well………..

Too well, in fact.

And I’ll tell you what – my daughter isn’t dating until she’s 21 – and then I’m going with them.

This “hooking up? thing has been going on since the dawn of time. Had it not, none of us would be here………

And so, the youth of our world, I understand you. It wasn’t that long ago that I was one of you.

But not with MY daughter………….

And as long as you can handle that, we’ll get along just fine.

And what’s up with this bumping and grinding thing? Are there too many growth hormones in your milk? Your generation seems to have grown up way too soon. You’re too far ahead of schedule, and you lack the maturity to deal with it.

Whatever happened to conducting ourselves with dignity and honor? Whatever happened to conducting ourselves with class?


I'm not going to sit here and criticize your parenting skills, because you are, after all, the parent...but I think you're being way too harsh with your daughter.
Dating is an experience that will help her in the real world as well, and unless she gets mixed in with the wrong crowd as a teenager, it won't "corrupt" her in any way.
I am a well-rounded fifteen year old who maintains above a 4.0 GPA, and I work hard in everything I do.
But yet, I still find the time to go out and have fun with the boys. It's really not that big of a deal, and sure, I've come across a couple of bad seeds, but it's only made me mentally stronger and less trusting of the male race, which is prone to sweet talk and charm.
Who knows?
She could find a respectable young man throughout her teenager years.
I know it's not necessary, but it's a part of growing up, and she could be feeling betrayed of her youth. So there's a nice guy she wants to 'date', and you refuse? Why?

Also, many of the people at my school that have overly strict parents go behind their backs. Before you launch a "my daughter would never do that" at me...you never know. ALOT of things go on behind parents' backs, especially if the parents are very restricting, because then the thrill of rebellion arises.


As for the 'grinding', have you seen 'Dirty Dancing'?
If not, watch it. It shows our way of dancing in a more passionate and understanding light.
No harm comes from grinding. It is, as stated above several times, the dance of our generation.
I'm sorry, but you can't expect us to do 'the bump' to Cyclone.
UNREASONABLE!
BLASPHEMY!!



Haha.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 09:06 AM
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On my recent Conquest cruise, I was actually rather impressed with the behavior of the young people I saw on the ship.
My husband and I were traveling with my birth mom and some of her friends and their families from the 911 office where she works. I was the youngest in our group at almost 40.
We met a number of teenagers during the week, including one young man that found us every day to chat with us and ask what we'd been doing during the last day. I went to parents more than one, not just for teenagers but younger too, to let them know how nice their children were, and how well behaved.
Thinking back to my other cruises, the only problem I can ever remember with young people was on the first one. The kids seemed overly fascinated with the glass elevators that time, and spent days pushing all the buttons and going around to the rail to watch folks getting frustrated while the elevator stopped at every floor. Nothing major, and it was actually kind of fun to tease those boys back by making funny faces at them while we were riding in one of their "trick" elevators.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ainsley
Each of you were a teenager at one time you had fun you had your time. Do each of you not wish that you go back to no responsibilities and nothing but a party life?
I honestly wish I could go back and be a better son. Was a I bad kid...no but some of the things I done were just plain stupid. I’m damn lucky luck was on my side and not the other way around or I would have had at a minimum some life altering consequences or worst case killed myself. I will surely share this with my son when he gets a little older.

Kids will make mistakes and that’s part of learning but my job as a parent is to make sure mistakes aren’t repeated ie lessons learned. I’m not going to be his buddy, pal, or playmate. I’m his parent which means what I say goes, no discussion, until the age of 18 at which time it’s on him. He will hate me for it then but will thank me for it later.

And yes parents today, as a generality, look at kids more as accessories to their life style then heirs to their lineage and future caretakers of them in their later years.

R
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Old February 20th, 2008, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Quote:
Originally Posted by momofmeg
Many many years ago my sister inlaw's best friend got pregnant on her senior trip to Myrtle Beach.

All the poor girl knew was the guy's first name and that he lived somewhere in North Carolina-so now there is man around 56 who has a 38 year old son and does not even know of his son's existance.


But worse then that, is the 38 year old man who has no idea who his father is. All because his mother drank a little too much on a beach one night and "hooked up" with a guy she did not know.
Wow!!! The ramifications of this situation are mind-boggling.

Does the young man know the circumstances of his conception? If so, how has he handled this all his life? Did he at least get a decent stepdad?
Well we are going back to late Febuary 1971 when this baby was born-this gal was a friend of my SIL. My SIL was a grade ahead of her and married my brother soon after graduation the year before and was not on this trip.

I believe they drifted apart. This gal married a soldier a couple of years later-(we lived in Augusta Ga-close to Ft. Gordon) who adopted him and they moved away to where he was from after he got out of the army.

My brother is no longer married to my now former SIL-they were married like 20 years and divorced in the 90's- both remarried.

I have a niece who just turned 37. I will have to ask her to ask her mom if she is still in touch.


I guess though with me- instead of being angry at these poor kids, I just worry they may be impacting their lives in a negative way.

Like Natalie Holloway. Poor girl. It would have been better if she had just had a child and had no idea who the father was-that would be better then being dead-as it seems she is.




My brother has been divorced from her
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