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  #31 (permalink)  
Old September 24th, 2008, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by colorcrazie
I think the difference is that the other groups are not any more likely to scream and whine than anyone else.
Marty
The funny thing is, Marty, those opposed to the "other groups" do indeed believe they are more likely to scream and whine. Prejudice isn' t a pretty thing. Those of us who point it out know that those who practice it tend to think they don't. Shrug, what can you do?

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Old September 25th, 2008, 07:01 AM
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.
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Originally Posted by ready2board
Man some of you are a bit anti-kid, aren't you?
I didn't like kids even when I was one .

Children should be kept under house arrest until they are six years old at which time they should be shipped off to a military boarding school.

Seriously it is a parenting problem, the kids are just being kids. Parents teach them that they can get what they want by whining and screaming every time they give in to such tactics. Worse is the ones that try to reason with their children rather than dicipline them. Reason means little to those under the age of 5. Worst of all is the school of thought that dicipline "stifles a child's creativity" or destroyes their self-esteem.

On second thought maybe its the parents that need to be shipped off to a military boarding school.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan
Quote:
Originally Posted by colorcrazie
I think the difference is that the other groups are not any more likely to scream and whine than anyone else.
Marty
The funny thing is, Marty, those opposed to the "other groups" do indeed believe they are more likely to scream and whine. Prejudice isn' t a pretty thing. Those of us who point it out know that those who practice it tend to think they don't. Shrug, what can you do?

Cheers. Aidan
How many people are going to remember the well-behaved kid who never screamed or made noise? This thread has nothing to do with prejudice. Those of us without kids have been called selfish because we don't have childern. Isn't that prejudice and wrong. I shouldn't have to explain my life choices to complete strangers when it's clearly none of their business.

And what about the taxes I pay to cover schools and services I will never have use of. Yet some parents get a tax deduction simply for not knowing how to use birth control.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
How many people are going to remember the well-behaved kid who never screamed or made noise? This thread has nothing to do with prejudice.
Clearly it is about prejudice, as you own comment illustrates ("How many people are going to remember the well-behaved kid ..."). Look at the title of the thread again. What exactly do you think pre-judging means?

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Old September 25th, 2008, 02:53 PM
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1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason. I have knowledge that some children are not well behaved. It's first hand experience.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable. Does this mean thinking all children are well behaved make me prejudice also? That is interesting.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group. Are children part of a religion and no one told me? Maybe they are a national group. My feelings are reasonable.
4. such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending. Nope it's not that either.
5. damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority. The drinking age is 21 in most states is that a law operated to the prejudice of a majority of childern? Maybe we should work to change that law.

I still don't see your view. The thread was started by someone who was distrubed by a child or children in a public place. No where on this thread is anyone claiming that all children are misbehaving. There are a lot of well behaved children. I don't mind being on an airplane with a well behaved child. However, if the parent is ignoring the child while it runs up and down the aslie being a brat that I don't want to be on a plane with that child. That doesn't make me prejudice it makes me a normal human being.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old September 25th, 2008, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
I still don't see your view. The thread was started by someone who was distrubed by a child or children in a public place. No where on this thread is anyone claiming that all children are misbehaving.
Really? I have met some rude people on cruises and planes. They were American. Would you honestly consider the following post to be a reasonable response? These are the exact words you are defending.



Americans On Airlines, Americans On Ships, Americans Anywhere

I guess that I must just be old and grumpy, but it seems that there are Americans crying or screaming almost everywhere I go. This particularly applies to resturants, movies and malls. I avoid this problem to a large extent on cruise ships, since I generally take long cruises during the winter months.

Almost every time we have been in a resturant during the past few months, there has been Americans crying or screaming somewhere in the establishment.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 03:19 PM
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Old September 25th, 2008, 03:48 PM
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Wow! Did this thread erupt or what? lol.

I think I said in my first post I wouldn't post any further on the subject but since it's taken on a life of its own, why not?

I think the whole child issue is like anything else, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Is it reasonable for entire industries like airlines to come up with adults only flights etc? No, I doubt in reality that's going to happen. Should parents do their level best to contain & control their child on a flight, in public or anywhere else?...Absolutely.

I agree the parent who just completely ignores a kid's bad behavior in public is completely at fault for not at least trying to maintain control and if that's the case, it's even reasonable to say something to them (even though some of the ways to deal with the parent posted earlier are just stupid, way over the top and rightfully will get the crap smacked out of you by a protective Dad). However, I do think it's a little presumptuous (got to be careful not to say prejudice I guess) that every parent who is having problems maintaining control is a horrible parent from hell. Kids are just going to have really bad kid days at times. All of us have made mistakes in life, lost our temper or whatever...Is it fair that someone who doesn't know us judges us completely from that one negative incident? No, it's not and we shouldn't just make a blanket judgement of every parent who is doing their best to keep a small child under control but still having problems doing so by just seeing them one time. Everyone has their pet theory on discipline. I've known good and bad kids who were disciplined the "old fashioned" way. I've seen good and bad kids that are disciplined in the newer, more "talk it out and reason with them" way. We all tend to think the way WE were brought up was the best, only way to do things and the world is falling apart because not everyone subscribes to our parents way of doing things...I think there is a bit more to it than that.

Most of us swear that while on a cruise, we won't let certain things that happen at times ruin our crusie. Maybe just try to apply that thinking to everyday life when it comes to a non-perfect kid you come in contact with. Don't let it ruin your dinner, flight or whatever anymore than you would let a bad waiter, the 3 hour wait to disembark the ship or missed port ruin an entire cruise. Besides, if we slump into an economic depression in the next few days, the last thing you are going to worry about when your in a line a quarter mile long outside your bank is going to be the crying kid behind you!
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old September 25th, 2008, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan
Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
I still don't see your view. The thread was started by someone who was distrubed by a child or children in a public place. No where on this thread is anyone claiming that all children are misbehaving.
Really? I have met some rude people on cruises and planes. They were American. Would you honestly consider the following post to be a reasonable response? These are the exact words you are defending.



Americans On Airlines, Americans On Ships, Americans Anywhere

I guess that I must just be old and grumpy, but it seems that there are Americans crying or screaming almost everywhere I go. This particularly applies to resturants, movies and malls. I avoid this problem to a large extent on cruise ships, since I generally take long cruises during the winter months.

Almost every time we have been in a resturant during the past few months, there has been Americans crying or screaming somewhere in the establishment.
That is funny because by substituting a national group into the post the post no longer makes sense. Which is my point it the OP took a cruise in the winter months he wouldn't avoid Americans, he won't even avoid all children he reduces the amount of children and that makes it less noisy on the cruise ship. Unless you are saying that a large group of children is quiet. If I say a large group of children will make more noise then a small group of children am I prejudice in your opinion? Because I would think that is just common sense based on personal experience.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ready2board
However, I do think it's a little presumptuous (got to be careful not to say prejudice I guess) that every parent who is having problems maintaining control is a horrible parent from hell. Kids are just going to have really bad kid days at times. All of us have made mistakes in life, lost our temper or whatever...Is it fair that someone who doesn't know us judges us completely from that one negative incident? No, it's not and we shouldn't just make a blanket judgement of every parent who is doing their best to keep a small child under control but still having problems doing so by just seeing them one time. :
If I see a parent trying to control their child and the child isn't listening that is different from a parent ignoring a child's behavior. You say "is it fair that somone who doesn't know us judges us completely from that one negative incident?" I'm going to tell you a secret, shhh don't tell anyone, life isn't fair. Perception is reality if your child is misbehaving and having a bad day and I see it. Guess what my perception is your child is a brat that doesn't listen.

However, if I see you later in the cruise and your child is well behaved my perception may change. I can be flexible and change my mind based on additional information.However, I can't look at a misbehaving kid and say hey he is really well behaved. Sorry if this isn't fair.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old September 25th, 2008, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
That is funny because by substituting a national group into the post the post no longer makes sense.
"Kids" is an international group. I do understand that that you are prejudiced against one group and not the other, and hence it doesn't make sense to you. ("I'm only against the kids, not the Americans, what is he talking about?")

Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
Because I would think that is just common sense based on personal experience.
It is also common sense based on personal experience that Americans are loud and obnoxious.

Personally, I find that kind of generalizaton and prejudice obnoxious, but obviously many do not.

Cheers, Aidan
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old September 25th, 2008, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan
Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
That is funny because by substituting a national group into the post the post no longer makes sense.
"Kids" is an international group. I do understand that that you are prejudiced against one group and not the other, and hence it doesn't make sense to you. ("I'm only against the kids, not the Americans, what is he talking about?")

Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
Because I would think that is just common sense based on personal experience.
It is also common sense based on personal experience that Americans are loud and obnoxious.

Personally, I find that kind of generalizaton and prejudice obnoxious, but obviously many do not.

Cheers, Aidan
Oh well you think I'm prejudice and obnoxious without even meeting me. There is nothing I can do to change your mind. So why bother, I'm out. Cheers, Sherry
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old September 25th, 2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
Oh well you think I'm prejudice and obnoxious without even meeting me.
Why do you say the things you say? Do you believe your own words or not?

This is a serious question.

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old September 28th, 2008, 11:32 AM
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yeah, when i was a kid i got much more than 'the look;' i got the promise! dad would say 'want to go home and have a co-cola (which we always used in the south instead of coca-cola)? i knew what that meant, for sure, and it sure wasn't just 'the look.' before we went to a home or restaurant for a meal, we were coached. did that make it unpleasant? absolutely not; it meant being like grown-ups. have i suffered from all of this squelching of my holy individualism and creativity? absolutely not. am i thankful? you better bet. hombre
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Old October 6th, 2008, 10:20 AM
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Aidan, I started this whole thing, and I am prejudiced against irresponsible
parents, not children. Furthermore, I do notice well behaved children, and seeing them makes me feel good. I stand by my original post and particularly appreciate Kat's comments.
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Old October 6th, 2008, 03:54 PM
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So its the usual response, WELL I WAS A GOOD KID. Well,,,,good for you.

Paul buddy, I hear it, I live it, the point you are making or conveying.

Its a reflection of the times that some don’t it.

So me being me, I will place it in bold black and in front of whatever the color this background is.

Yes, a lot of people control their kids and consider that child’s action wil reflect on them as people. So they will act and react in certain scenarios that some will look at say, good on you, and some will call potential child abuse

Others, they give their young so much freedom that they are just running enough rope for them as children to be brought up thinking "I can do what I like" and that same rope will be to be used to judge or hang the parent said parent on their parenting skills.

The third scenario, and this is the one and becoming the most popular, that really gets me, these “little people”, and the parents that bring up kids thinking they are "little people" and should have a voice or action that is “free” and with the ability to also interrupt adult conversation, as if I want to hear what this child is saying or doing,,,but the big smile parents are so proud that this “CHILD” has interrupted an adult conversation with “whatever reason”,,,sorry, they as parents are the ones that really need a good kick up the A@@. And a touch of reality, its as if they are working with dolls, God help that child when they meet the real world and without their parents, coaching, support and then see how the real world reacts when you do what you.

What I am saying I think a couple of things, and these are timeless

As a child, when an adult is speaking, shut up
You cant do what you always want because it suits your mood, as others may want different
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Old March 12th, 2010, 02:49 PM
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Although I'm an adult autie, I can't stand screaming, bratty children. (I understand those who are like me or something like that, but it's the neuro-typicals that largely bug me.) They just comprise the bulk of an environment's sensory input and causes sensory overload inside me.

Fortunately, in a cruise ship where kids seem to rule the roost and loudly whine a lot (I'm talking about Disney Cruise Line's Disney Wonder, folks), there's an oasis - when cruising in August '08, I went to a specialty dining venue, Palo, and was amazed by its placidity. Compared to that atmosphere in Animator's Palette, Parrot Cay, and even formal Triton's, I neither heard nor seen any brats in the dining area. Thank goodness for its policy that bars Guests under 18!

If you are cruising on a ship geared towards all walks of life, don't be afraid to seek out places that have age restrictions like the restaurant on a DCL ship. You'll be glad you did
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Old March 12th, 2010, 03:34 PM
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I have four children who from a very young age knew what kind of behavior was expected from them in public. I have walked out of restaurants, stores, movies...and if we have to walk out there will be consequences and you will not like them! My husband has a cousin who has one daughter who they complained about her behavior. Seems they would not take her ANYWHERE - not even McDonald's! How can she learn how to behave if you don't give her the opportunity to be in public. No, they keep her at home and let her run absolutely wild!
Our kids drive us crazy sometimes, but I can't count how many times we've been approached by strangers complimenting us on how well our children are behaving - especially when they were little (mainly because our last three are less than 3 years apart - total - and no, we don't have twins!). Always amazed us and gave us the little pat on the back that let us know we were doing something right!
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Old March 21st, 2010, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
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Well you know I agree. Some parents should not be parents. I have left stores early because of someone's screaming, annoying brat. This doesn't mean all kids are screaming annoying brats, I have seem well behaved children they do exist. It depends on the kid.
Nine times out of ten, a misbehaving child, is because of the parents not giving them direction and discipline. In a small percentage of cases, the child may have autism or ADHD,which is the exception to the rule. Often, even with those children, I have seen parents who took the time to help them, and those kids were remarkably well behaved, even in comparison to other children, who had nothing wrong with them, except for permissive parents who did not discipline them.
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Old March 21st, 2010, 03:34 PM
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Agree with the OP - it is so hard to get away from them anymore. DH and I have even had parents bring them in to bars.

Of course, everyone is convinced THEIR kids don't behave poorly. Yesterday, one was shrieking in a jewelry store where I was trying to shop. I finally had to leave and could still hear her! Outside! The parents did nothing to turn down the decibels.
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Old March 21st, 2010, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
Well you know I agree. Some parents should not be parents. I have left stores early because of someone's screaming, annoying brat. This doesn't mean all kids are screaming annoying brats, I have seem well behaved children they do exist. It depends on the kid.
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Nine times out of ten, a misbehaving child, is because of the parents not giving them direction and discipline. In a small percentage of cases, the child may have autism or ADHD,which is the exception to the rule. Often, even with those children, I have seen parents who took the time to help them, and those kids were remarkably well behaved, even in comparison to other children, who had nothing wrong with them, except for permissive parents who did not discipline them.
My brother is severely Autistic. If a child has a Developmental Disability I would know it by watching them. Since I have been around it my whole life. The lack of eye contact and repeating behavior make it easy to see someone is Autistic, if you know what you are looking at. Of course I give a pass to a parent with an Autistic child or a child with any developmental disability. I understand what they are dealing with and I give them a lot of credit.
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Old March 21st, 2010, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
Well you know I agree. Some parents should not be parents. I have left stores early because of someone's screaming, annoying brat. This doesn't mean all kids are screaming annoying brats, I have seem well behaved children they do exist. It depends on the kid.

My brother is severely Autistic. If a child has a Developmental Disability I would know it by watching them. Since I have been around it my whole life. The lack of eye contact and repeating behavior make it easy to see someone is Autistic, if you know what you are looking at. Of course I give a pass to a parent with an Autistic child or a child with any developmental disability. I understand what they are dealing with and I give them a lot of credit.
I know 2 young boys, one has autism-probably "meduim", the other has Aspergers. Neither do "repeated actions." The one with Aspergers is more simply unsure of himself, and has trouble carrying on a conversation with people. He is a "loner." The boy with autism, is even more so a "loner." (except for his mother, even though he is 14, he clings to her-but does not want anyone else to touch him) Now, HE does have trouble looking you in the face, but not the boy with Aspergers.

Now, I met a couple with their daughter who had autism on one cruise. She was very loud.( but, as she was at the pool, it was happy sounds, so I was not bothered) I met them at the pool, the day we were at the private island. They stayed on ship to allow her to enjoy the pool. They told me she would "act out" at times when around a lot of people, which is why they normally kept her away from the public areas. They said they would also take her to the pool during dinner time around 7 pm. First seating would still be eating dinner, and second seating would be getting ready for dinner, so that was a good time to take her.
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Old March 21st, 2010, 06:24 PM
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Aspergers is a little different mush more mild than austim. Of course everyone is different. However, most Autistic people don't like loud noises, crowds, making eye contact, and my brother for sure repeats action often tapping a foot in the place place walking back and forward. Maybe this is because is autism is more severe. My brother doesn't talk only a few word like "outside" and "want drinky". Like the parents of the ausitic girl, we know what triggers my brother and try to avoid putting him into a position where he is not comfortable. My brother has never flew, if a baby started crying on a plane my brother might freak out on the plane. Since my brother is over 40 years old all people would see is a man freaking out on an plane that that would not be good. Here is a good website that explains common austism behaviors.
Autism Fact Sheet: National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS)
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:23 AM
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Aspergers is a little different mush more mild than austim. Of course everyone is different. However, most Autistic people don't like loud noises, crowds, making eye contact, and my brother for sure repeats action often tapping a foot in the place place walking back and forward. Maybe this is because is autism is more severe. My brother doesn't talk only a few word like "outside" and "want drinky". Like the parents of the ausitic girl, we know what triggers my brother and try to avoid putting him into a position where he is not comfortable. My brother has never flew, if a baby started crying on a plane my brother might freak out on the plane. Since my brother is over 40 years old all people would see is a man freaking out on an plane that that would not be good. Here is a good website that explains common austism behaviors.
Autism Fact Sheet: National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS)
I know a lot about autism, because of my friend's son. I have read up on it. I know Aspergers is not autism, at least most experts say it is not-though a few say it is mild autism. The experts can't agree.

I do believe this can be different with each person, some have all the symptoms you mentioned, others show only a few, or one or two.

Bottom line, as you mentioned, people whose children have this severely, know not to not put them in situations which will cause them to "act out". Ninety-nine times out of one-hundred, if you see a child acting out, he is a so called "normal" child who is merely spoiled by permissive parents who have not done their job in training their children.

As far as your brother, if I saw him getting upset because of a crying child, I would guess he probably had autism. I would not judge him adversely. I would surmise he could not help it.
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Old March 26th, 2010, 07:12 AM
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What was said here of allot of people is why I never got married and had kids in the first place. NOT worth it. The way society is today, the parent gets into troulble for what the kid does.
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Old March 26th, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by david30101 View Post
What was said here of allot of people is why I never got married and had kids in the first place. NOT worth it. The way society is today, the parent gets into trouncer for what the kid does.
You know, your post really shows you know nothing about the subject. On the other hand, I am a parent, so I do know what I am talking about. Almost all children who have been disciplined and trained by their parents, do not normally "act up," unless they are ill, exhausted, or something along that line. (and if they are ill or exhausted, a good parent wouldn't have them in public) Most children can be trained to be well behaved by the time they are 3 years old. Of course, the exception would be a child with ADHD or autism. But, as I said, I have even seen children with autism who had been trained to be well behaved in public, by the time they were 5 or 6 years old. Also, normally,their parents ( and familes) have learned what triggers them, and do not put them in a situation that would up set them as Kat Lady said. Her brother does not fly, as crying infants on planes upset him.
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Old March 26th, 2010, 04:48 PM
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Have any of you ever watched the Dog Whisperer? Cesar Millan is incredible the way he relates to dogs. He proved it over and over again that how we FEEL...these unspoken emotions, can and do affect our relationships within the family 'pack'. One of his famous mantras is, 'Rules, boundaries and limitations'.

If dogs need these RBL's to be balanced, how much more so our children. It's a mistake to think that ALL discipline has to mean punishment...it doesn't. It can include training to obey and respect rules.

Setting 'Rules, establishing Boundaries and Limitations' helps a child to feel stable (or balanced) because they know what is expected of them.

Of course you might think this is too simple a solution to the complex family dynamics and you're right this isn't a Pollyanna cure-all...but really some parents are so busy trying to be friends with their children or LIKE their children they've forgotten what a serious responsibility it is to be a parent. They're afraid to take a firm stand, set boundaries or any limitations.

Thus you have people like us who stand back and watch in horror parents and children on Airlines and cruise ships...We light candles and thank the gods that those kids aren't ours.
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Old March 27th, 2010, 09:03 AM
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To be honest I don't much care why kids/adults misbehave, it's a pain in the ass when they do, it spoils my meal/journey/holiday, I don't understand why they do it & I don't much want to. I want them to stop it or go away!!
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