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  #61 (permalink)  
Old May 14th, 2009, 11:54 PM
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Rev,

No one loves kids more than I but (and I'm really dating myself here), I am from the "Children are to be seen but not heard" generation, something that was absolutely enforced.

So many today exclaim, "Oh how restrictive!" and "Do you know how much damage you can do to a child by yelling at him/her, much less by using corporal punishment?" etc.. While I most respectfully disagree I am not an expert on child psychology....or am I? More about that at the end.

What I can authoritatively tell you is this. If my father were still alive and punished me the way he did when I was a kid, they'd send him away for 3 to 5 today. Yet, I truly loved him and my mother, I'm neither mal adjusted nor do I feel inferior, nor do I hate women, men, etc. nor did I ever want to gun down my fellow classmates nor did I ever do drugs nor do I remember a whole lot of any of that occuring with my generation. I'd go so far as to hazard a guess that most folks my age were raised in the same manner with the same values and with the same punishments. Additionally I have despised bullies my entire life and I define a "bully" as one who takes advantage of someone less fortunate be it phyically, mentally or financially. Yeah, of course there are bad people out there of our age too.

Yet what about today's children wherein God Forbid, one must never strike them! Why, all that has to be done is just to put them in "Time Out" whatever that is and don't make them feel in the least inferior. Also be sure and take away all competition and goals in sports simply because we all know that children need to "feel they're successful."

All I can tell you is that it is from this more recent group of children that students slaughter each other both in schools and gangs; use four letter words at the age of five or six; can never even be loudly reprimanded for fear it would hurt their sensibilities, are completely uncontrollable by the time they're teenagers' and are NEVER EVER held realistically accountable for virtually any misbehavior!

At each stage of their progress through childhood, there is someone, often a "professional," always there to make excuses for their behavior; lack of performance in the classroom, etc. Today's children are told it's really okay to have to have sex as long as protection is used, whenever they want with whomever they want and are even provided the contraceptives! Yet the parents of those same children can't even be told their child is having an abortion! And lest I forget, God forbid that a teacher so much as give a student a Tylenol. If they do, the child abuse claim will be on the front page! Yet it's fine for even pre teens to absolutely conduct themselves as complete jackasses in public because after all, we wouldn't want to upset them at such an impressionable age, now would we? As Shelly Berman used to say, "Tell them now, in their formative years, before they grow up and make an arbitrary decision!"

I am not a therapist but I absolutely do believe in Therapy. I also believe in the proverbial royal kick in the ass. If you set strict boundaries on children and enforced them simply by "time outs" and were successful, then I say Bless you. The problem is, most kids don't react positively in the long term to such "punishment."

How do I, an individual without even a college degree know that?

That's an easy one, I was the guy who had to lock your kids up ... and all too often simply because nobody, and I mean NOBODY in their lives ever took the time to truly demonstrate their love by setting strict boundaries and stringently enforcing those boundaries.

What's the ultimate result?

Twenty-five to Life in a Penitentiary is a hell of a "Time Out," now isn't it?

'Nuff said

Todd
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Old May 15th, 2009, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DayvidB
"
I actually tell my kids - They should SPEAK UP and give their opinions, say what they think, say what they want. - What a concept, treat kids like people and then they act like people!"

Did someone actually say the above Unbelievable
Yes, sad as it may seem, that was said here. Odd that a parent would allow a child to talk over, SPEAK UP, over adults. I call it rude. But as I sais in my post, it IS always the parents fault.
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Old May 16th, 2009, 05:19 PM
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Hi Rev, yip good to be back and for now like the old me,,but

"I know children who can converse like an adult", but you did also say

"but that does not mean that they are. We too often treat them as such and it can have a negative impact on them and the whole family. "

A good and honest opinion, however in backup some just see children that can talk well and in a presentable fashion as an adults equal.
Sorry, I would dispute their rational, the thought process and logic behind hearing a child words given their experience of life and knowledge of how "adults" react in social actions and reactions.

For all the words may be well placed from the child, they are only that,, words from a child in an adults environment. And no matter what they are talking about, it will never relate to how an adult would see the same scenario.

You give an opinion, I give an opinion, other adults give an opinion of words said. I will agree or I may dispute and discuss those words further. But for all thier words or "thoughts", am I going to do the same with a "mouthy child",,,,no

Its so unfair on the "audience" that the parents place their children and other adults in that scenario. One sitting thinking so proud of you, and how clever are you. The rest saying take these pains in the ass out my ear range.

Sad thing is, they are seen as progressive,mmm
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Old May 17th, 2009, 01:14 AM
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Default I'm confused

Is this board about children in the dining room? Children with their own thoughts? Children who speak up and share their thoughts? Children who can communicate their feelings? Children who even speak or who are (for Heaven's sake) children?

What I don't get is some of the arrogance of the adults here. Short of saying you don't like kids, or want them on your cruise, the thoughts are pretty aparent.

Seems like most of you forgot what it was like being "shut up" or treated like your opinions or thoughts didn't matter.

Where's the tolernce or love? lol

Sorry to be the "heavy", but I would hate to be a "kid" around most of you, or even be YOUR child.

Adults are no better, no more evolved than children and what a lot of you forget, is whether your 62 or 12, we are ALL equal.

Nuff said
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Old May 17th, 2009, 07:31 AM
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Mermen,

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You are most obviously alluding to my remarks among others. Somewhere I guess you missed the line that I LOVE children. As a matter of fact, I adore them.

But any parent or guardian who does not emplace strict boundaries upon their children as to behavior, acceptable social graces, ad nauseam are in no way whatsoever doing their children any favors.

If you, for one second, think that I'm going to say that I feel there is nothing wrong with a child talking back to an adult (and you certainly understand what I mean by that), you are out of your mind. If you for one second think that I feel it wrong in order to protect a child's sensibilities that he/she is not going to be strongly corrected if he/she stands and kicks or berates an adult because they feel as if they are not receiving what they want or because they want to be the center of attenion, especially in an adult social venue, you are also out of your mind. If you think my child is going to constantly distrupt a glassroom and I'm not going to want a teacher to tan their hide, you are one very wrong individual.

It is your right to believe I am a barbarian but if you do, please re-read the last sentence of my post. And then my friend, tell if the barbarian is indeed yours truly or the individual who raised such children.

Todd
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Old May 17th, 2009, 03:17 PM
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Todd, this barbarian agrees with you 100 percent. It is almost impossible to go out to a resturant these days without hearing a child crying, screaming loudly or roaming unfettered among the civilzed adults.

It is probably the same clueless parents who take their young children to see the bloody horror movies or the R rated sex comedies at the movies.
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Old May 17th, 2009, 03:55 PM
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"Is this board about children in the dining room? Children with their own thoughts? Children who speak up and share their thoughts? Children who can communicate their feelings? Children who even speak or who are (for Heaven's sake) children?"

Yes it is all about that

Its is also about when children talk in an adult environment they should talk their parent or parents. They should not talk to me like an equal.

Sorry, they are yours or others children and thier comments, thoughts or opinions should be directed to only you until they can fully have an adult conversation.

And if they step out that box, as parents you should drag them back in and respect that although its good for you, you are placing another adult in the position of "discussing" with a child.

Do I hate children, no, do I hate parents that place me in potentially awkward positions because they should know better, yes. DO I get embarrased for their kids, yes.

Discipline is not an art we are born with, it is learned from those that know
what is acceptable. Sadly it is a dying parental art
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Old May 17th, 2009, 04:14 PM
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Thank you Paul, for your support. I am sure that the televised video of that 16 year old child beating the daylights out of that defenceless female school bus driver as she was sitting behind the wheel of her bus was allowed to be with his own thoughts regardless of however he formulated those thoughts -- especially considering this was the fourth time the boy had committed a violent act which obviously was treated with I'm sure , "understanding and tolerance." I'm just as sure he has been throughout his life allowed to speak up and share those thoughts and feelings whenever he so pleased regardless of whatever age he was at the time or the appropriateness of the venue. I am just as sure that he undoubtedly started using four letter words when he was far less than ten and those around him either thought "Isn't that cute" or believed he should be able to grow without being stifled by either harsh words or corporal punishment. And the way that he communicated his "feelings" has now finally, landed him behind bars. I guess that child received more than enough "tolerance of love."

I was taught to defend myself against bullies, something I had to do but one time and that was in the sixth grade. Even a child defending themselves today is considered barbarian. And when I did screw up (which of course I did) heaven forbid would one of my parents so much as dream of attempting an explanation for my ill behavior.

That coupled with the facts that I had very loving parents who showed their love in countless ways of which creating boundaries that if they were to be crossed (as they sometimes were) I knew the consequences well in advance, was but one. And this even though I lost my Father when I was fifteen. I always knew if I put my hand on that hot stove, I was going to get burned.

Well intentioned though they may be, some adults (and I'm sure a whole lot of 'em) had best start understanding some basic facts of life. If one is really observant of the behavior of so many of today's pre-teens through to young adulthood (absent hairdo's or color combinations or lingo (that isn't nauseatingly foul), you tell me. Are today's methods working? I think the answer must be in all too many instances, obviously not as well as the "old school."

Oh, and by the way Merman, "old school" can also be synonymous with "a sense of good values."

Todd
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Old May 17th, 2009, 08:20 PM
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Merman, I read your post and, unfortunately, am unable to agree. Children and adults are NOT equal when their behavior is uncivilized.
It may not be the child's fault when they have been allowed to become a little savage by their too tolerant parents, but almost any child will try to push the boundaries.
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Old May 18th, 2009, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B
It is probably the same clueless parents who take their young children to see the bloody horror movies or the R rated sex comedies at the movies.
As a Mother of two beautiful children, may I add that I understand the hard work it is to bring up kids. I am fortunate to have Nanny, and do understand that she is a luxury not every Mother has. I love my kids. *BUT* have to agree with Paul B. There are so many bad parents out there. This is not a discussion about kids eating in a restaurant, this is about behaviour in the restaurant. Be it the Adults or the kids. When our family dine out, I always insist that Nanny eats with the kids at a seperate table. manners must be respected. the Wait staff must be respected. My kids know and understand that being nice to people, being respectful of people and being courtious to others is expected in my family.
Its always nice to be nice


I have a neighbour (Donna,Wendy and Chubbas) who also like to dine out at the same restaurant as us. They are really bad mannered and often use bad language in public. They have no respect for anyone. Eat with their mouths open, dont know which silverware to use. Its bad.
Thankfully, I have successfully avoided them at the restaurant, but I know some day I will be invited to dine with them. That day, hopefully, will be a long time away.
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Old May 18th, 2009, 03:07 PM
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[quote="Lynn Knickers"]
My kids know and understand that being nice to people, being respectful of people and being courtious to others is expected in my family.
Its always nice to be nice


I agree with you Lynn. My son is 19 and step daughter 18. We were both fortunate to have been raised by parents who believed in respectful and well-mannered children. Our children understand this, and while we can see the fruits of our labor, they still have their own "individuality".

There's a very large spectrum here, in speaking about children. While I love the laughter of children and very much enjoy engaging with them as an adult, do not enjoy being around selfish, unruly children who do not understand manners (most likely because the parents don't or never did as well).
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Old May 19th, 2009, 10:14 AM
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"As a Mother of two beautiful children, may I add that I understand the hard work it is to bring up kids. I am fortunate to have Nanny, and do understand that she is a luxury not every Mother has. I love my kids. *BUT* have to agree with Paul B. There are so many bad parents out there. This is not a discussion about kids eating in a restaurant, this is about behaviour in the restaurant. Be it the Adults or the kids. When our family dine out, I always insist that Nanny eats with the kids at a seperate table. manners must be respected. the Wait staff must be respected. My kids know and understand that being nice to people, being respectful of people and being courtious to others is expected in my family.
Its always nice to be nice"

Lynn,

All I can say after reading this is how tremendously sad I am for your children. The fact that you consider a family meal in a restaurant to be gratifying when your children are a separate table with the Nanny, is sad. While I am certain that the Nanny has done a tremendous job assisting you in raising these wonderful children, I have to wonder how much more she would hear about their day to day lives while dining with them in the restaurant. I wonder how they will recall it when they are adults.

While I expect my children to be respectful, to not intrude on adult conversations and to utilize the appropriate manners, I have no intention of spending dinners at separate tables from them as part of our family vacations or events. If children are to be treated that way perhaps it would be better if they were just bred and shipped immediately off to boarding school until they are worthy of our company.

For the record, I too hate to dine with screaming, crying children and believe that their parents should have the social skills to remove them immediately from a dining room when they act poorly. Now if only some of the adults would kindly remove themselves from the same dining room when they were acting poorly, we all could enjoy dinner.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Littletime


While I expect my children to be respectful, to not intrude on adult conversations and to utilize the appropriate manners, I have no intention of spending dinners at separate tables from them as part of our family vacations or events. If children are to be treated that way perhaps it would be better if they were just bred and shipped immediately off to boarding school until they are worthy of our company.

For the record, I too hate to dine with screaming, crying children and believe that their parents should have the social skills to remove them immediately from a dining room when they act poorly. Now if only some of the adults would kindly remove themselves from the same dining room when they were acting poorly, we all could enjoy dinner.

Well spoken 2Littletime. I agree with your thoughts. I don't understand some of the adult-behavior towards children. Whether my children were unruly or not, I would expect them to be respectful of adults; however, treating my child or any child as if "they don't belong" seems harsh. I would suggest those "adults" find an "adult only" venue for their vacation, perhaps.

It seems this topic has gone from unruly children to children in general, and whether or not they have a right to interact with an "adult", to whether or not corporal punishment should still be allowed - lol.

Hmmmm, I wonder what the kid thinks?
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Old May 19th, 2009, 12:17 PM
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Default CHILDREN ON CRUISE SHIPS/RESTAURANTS

Not going to read all the previous, because I'm pretty well opiniated on this.. We have raised two sons...who are nearing 50 so I think I can talk with authority.. When we go into a restaurant and we see little children..we ask to be seated in another section of a restaurant...We have been on a cruise mid-september and I commented to a woman with two pre-teens why they weren't in school.. and she said.. they were very bright and it was okay.. One morning heard that the boy was tossed out at the disco at 1:00 a.m... At breakast that morning we were sitting with the mother and she asked her children what time they went to bed.. where in the world was she.. She made them sit down and have breakfast..they ordered and ate nothing... On another cruise we wanted to go into a jacuzzi and it was crowded with children (NO CHILDREN ALLOWED) AND one boy was standing and urinating in the pool... when we made a comment the mother said.. why don't you tell him not to do it.....Sorry people..at my age I want to enjoy my dinner.. I don't need kids running their parents.. Sure, we have seen some well behaved children.but we also find that parents think that a cruise ship is a safe place for kids to run loose.. I do not pay good money to have kids pushing all the buttons on an elevator, pushing in front of us in a buffet line and just running wild.. I'm too old for that crap.. and if the parents can't control them the cowardly cruise lines should do something about asking the parents to control their children..Hate to sound like a broken record.. but parents nowadays..(don't I sound old) let the kids do as they damn well please and there is NO discipline or rules... okay.. so get the kids out of my way...or else teach them manners.. you parents are busy trying to please y our kids nowadays..it doesn't work.. we have self centered brats with cell phones and i=pods..just running loose.. Parents. help your kids to grow up PLEASE for t heir own sakes and to respect other people.. and don't think that they come first in t his world.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 01:15 PM
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To me there is a big difference bewteen a child talking to me at the dining room table and a child screaming and crawling around on the floor. I don't mind being at the table with the child who is talking to me. Get the other kid alway from me.

I agree with parrot mom if an area says "no children allowed" then your children are not allow there. If an adult acted like some of the children parrotmom described the adult would be removed from the ship at the next stop. If parents can't control their kids to the point they are openly peeing in the pool eject the whole family off the ship. I know the cruise lines won't do this because it wouldn't look good on the nightly news report.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 01:47 PM
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Just imagine the headlines "Kid Pees, Doesn't Please, Mother Flees" and then, "Kicked Off Cruise, Parent Sues!"
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Old May 19th, 2009, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B
Just imagine the headlines "Kid Pees, Doesn't Please, Mother Flees" and then, "Kicked Off Cruise, Parent Sues!"
, that's funny, Paul B! Loved the "Front Page" headline. It's more believable than we realize!

Katlady, once again I agree with your summary of Parrot Mom's opinion. I agree with some of Parrot Mom's wisdom, but have to remind myself and say:

This thread is about misbehaving children in the dining room, or cruise ship. I know they're out there, I see them at the store, mall, walking down the street and all around! I agree with Parrot Mom that some parents probably bring their rug rats on board, thinking they have a floating hotel to play in! I really haven't seen this on Celebrity though.

To counter Parrot Mom, I could bring up the general pushy behavior of many seniors, pushing and shoving their way into the elevator or through the buffet line, or running to the excursions, having to be FIRST! Most of the time, I'll roll my eyes and just let them have their way, but for God's sake, LET ME OFF the elevator before you barage your way in. Say, "Excuse me". Wait your turn! Don't wear your age as a badge to get your way and act, in many ways, like an unruly child, or that you just "didn't realize". Puleeze....

Maybe this is for another topic? .

Kids aren't the only ones who act out. I've pretty much been on cruise ships (=X=) where 95% were adults, upper middle aged to senior and playing the devils advocate,I can surely point a finger at many adults for the same type of behavior.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 04:42 PM
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Default PUSHY ADULTS

OKAY, Triton... I do agree with cruisers or anybody who feels they are "owed" and they deserve to be "first" because of how many days they have cruised or what category they are on... and flaunt it.. After all they are Elite and deserve everything coming to them... Gee wonder is with my cruise fare that means I have to get to the back of the line to let these Elite members eat first or leave the ship first.... these are the people who give a cruise line a bad name...and we know that.. Yes, I have seen inappropriate behavior on other ships beside Celebrity by adults and children. Here is where I also go off my rocker...young teen age girls loose on the ship at all hours (let me make a judgement too.. so many of the young "ladies" are in my old eyes and I maybe jealous are dressed pretty provocativly...(yes, I'm jealous)...I can distinctly remember a young lady being wooed to meet at night by one of the crew members...that was quashed pretty fast.. Young ladies I'm sure would be very flattered to have attention paid to them by a man in a white coat...with an accent..Call me silly, call me old fashioned, but there are too many cases of rape and a few missing women from cruise ships and heaven knows how many have not been reported or covered up..
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Old May 19th, 2009, 07:02 PM
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I guess we can all agree the only way to rectify bad situations is to speak up?
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Old May 19th, 2009, 07:48 PM
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and who do you " speak up" to.. the doting parents, the Officers who are afraid to offend the parents? If in the dining room you can ask to change tables..if there is room... Grouchy Parrot Mom and Parrot Pop try to travel before school is out before mid-June.. and trans-atlantic in the fall..NO WE DON'T HATE CHILDREN..we love well behaved children and respect well behaved adults.. Which will bring us to another subject... the constant it seems cell phones and texting at shows..
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Old May 19th, 2009, 10:13 PM
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Triton, most of us creaky seniors can't run to the elevator and can only wobble there on our walkers. you are, of course. correct. People can be rude and inconsiderate at any age, however, the majority of bad behavior by children is primarily due to poor parenting.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 11:42 PM
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Everytime someone posts about childern; someone else posts about how adults are worse. I have NEVER seen an adult pee in the pool. Never ever not even the drunk ones. Is anyone surprised to learn the children pee in the pool? Maybe that will be my next poll.

BTW I put up the poll which is worst a drunk adult or a misbehaving kid. 73 people voted (which is the most people I ever had vote on one of my polls) 45 people said misbehaving kid and only 38 people said drunk adult. Some people cited that at least the drunk is entertaining. I agree with that. Seriously do you want to be at a table with this kid?
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Old May 20th, 2009, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
I have NEVER seen an adult pee in the pool.
What a great quote.

I did expect some flack about posting info about my childrens Nanny. In these times of economic downturn, I do hope that I have not offended anybody. I do realise how fortunate I am in having the luxuary to afford one.
I also enjoy cruising, love meeting people and always enjoy discussion. Even though some of us may disagree, we all are nice to each other.
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Old May 20th, 2009, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
Everytime someone posts about children; someone else posts about how adults are worse. I have NEVER seen an adult pee in the pool. Never ever not even the drunk ones.
Kat:

Unfortunately I have seen it twice. Once on my last Carnival cruise. A rather drunk man suddenly had a bit of "yellow" water around him. I left the pool immediately. You'd think that after all that drinking he would have been less "concentrated".

The second was on the Island Princess when an elderly woman did try to get out of the pool but the "trail" that was left by her left no doubt that an accident had occurred and was still occurring. I did feel bad for her.

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Old May 20th, 2009, 04:35 PM
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The second person I feel bad for she was trying not to do it. It just sucks getting old.

Kids do it on purpose, like your first drunk guy. I think I have learned an important lesson if there is a drunk guy or kid in the pool get out quick.
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Old May 21st, 2009, 10:15 AM
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katlady wrote:
Everytime someone posts about children; someone else posts about how adults are worse. I have NEVER seen an adult pee in the pool. Never ever not even the drunk ones.


We had a drunk guy pee on our stateroom door and then yell at us to get the heck out of his bathroom when we opened the door to see what was going on. Does this count? YUCK!

BTW I don't think adults are worse, just that I think that for every rotten child I've had the displeasure of encountering I have also encountered an equally intolerable adult. It just seems like the kids get bashed harder for it on the boards than the adults. I think there is far more tolerance for ignorant adults than there is for even a nice kid.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Littletime
I think there is far more tolerance for ignorant adults than there is for even a nice kid.
I agree

If you don't want to be on a ship with kids, I suggest you book Holland America and you won't have to be with kids.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funcruiser212
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Littletime
I think there is far more tolerance for ignorant adults than there is for even a nice kid.
I agree

If you don't want to be on a ship with kids, I suggest you book Holland America and you won't have to be with kids.
I disagree, in fact most people beleive the childern that are misbehaving because of their parents. Like I said everytime someone posts about bad kids, someone post about drunk or misbehaving adults. Reviewing the posts right now we have this post, a post on adults taking to much food at the buffet and adults leaving thier towels at the pool and not picking up after themselves. Most gripe posts are about adults.

The reason cruisers get irrated with the kids thing. Is because of what Parrotmom said, "and who do you " speak up" to.. the doting parents, the Officers who are afraid to offend the parents? If in the dining room you can ask to change tables." When Childern misbehave there is not to much you can do expect change dining room tables if there is space. But why should I have to move it someone's kid is misbehaving?

Funcruiser212 instead of the kids behaving you want me to book a more expensive cruise on a line that doesn't suit me. Why is that? I'm not misbehaving on the ship. I'm not even the drunk adult peeing on the stateroom door or in the pool (those are normally males). If your kids are well behaved I would enjoy cruising with them. If I get in an elevator and all the buttons are pushed, if the parent allows the kids in the adult only pools and spas, if the kids are screaming at dinner, or putting the waiters in danger. :evil: Then I have a problem, and it's one with no easy solution aside from griping to other people in the hope a good remedy can be found. Expecting me to switch my favorite cruiseline is not a good remedy.

BTW my last cruise was a 14 day TA during school. There were 25 kids on board and they were all very well behaved, including my nephew who turned 9 years old on the ship. I had no problem on the ship.
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Old May 24th, 2009, 04:33 PM
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It would be good if some people put in as much effort with their kids in the real world as they do on here writing and acting in the unreal world
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Old May 24th, 2009, 07:38 PM
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Some would be amazed how children would react when a stranger disciplines them.
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