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  #31 (permalink)  
Old February 5th, 2010, 10:17 AM
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Kat, in addition to being a tooter, --- you're a real hoot!!
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Old February 5th, 2010, 03:22 PM
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Aiden

"Interesting qualification. Smoking is the social equivalent of blasting your hotel TV in the middle of the night or passing gas in an elevator or cutting in line."

Its not by any means bud. And because you like a lot of non smokers think it is, then the poor smoker who is trying to obey the limited rules available to them today will always be an outcast in your opinion,,mm.

On your thoughts, people that blast a TV to all at all hours are scum, that's anti social as it affects all around them in a more uncontrolled way

Cutting a line, again you cannot relate that to smokers working in what is allowed by the rules. Social acceptance from all would take that as not acceptable for anyone.

Passing gas in a lift and walking out hoping no one comes in, well I imagine thats quite common and we all hope we can get out before the next person gets in

I can give you a list of things that I see non smokers do that I am concerned about even more,,want to compare?

Go into toilet, do whatever and walk out ignoring there is a basin to wash their hands in

Sneeze or cough across all around and with no thought of covering mouth or nose

Scratch "private bits" and then lift something from a buffet with the same hand

Talk at such a volume to a person two feet away from them that others 30ft away feel they they are in the conversation

Splash dive or hog the pool or hot tubs so much that no-one else feels comfortable to be in there.

I could go on and I'm sure others have theor versions of what is anti social, but smoking we do it where allowed and until that changes we are in the right,,so what do we do about the rest?

Naw, dont think about it, smokers are the easy target
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Old February 5th, 2010, 08:52 PM
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Kat, in addition to being a tooter, --- you're a real hoot!!
Why Thank you.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 03:47 AM
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Its not by any means bud.
Smokers are drug addicts by definition, bud. And I don't want them near my nephews.

Cheers, Aidan
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Old February 6th, 2010, 11:49 AM
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Smokers are drug addicts by definition, bud. And I don't want them near my nephews.

Cheers, Aidan
I could imply by your statement that you don't want you nephew around a smoker regardless of if he is smoking or not. Is that what you meant to say?

1. If so some coffee drinkers, and soda drinks that are addicts. I'm a caffeine addict and I'm fine with that.

2. People who post on the internet a lot could also be termed as addicts.

3. People who spend more money then they have also are addicts.

If any of these apply to you then you could be an addict of something. It depends on that addict on whether I care if you are near my nephew.

Here is the defination of addiction:
http://education.yahoo.com/reference...ntry/addiction

NOUN:

    1. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance: a drug used in the treatment of heroin addiction.
    2. An instance of this: a person with multiple chemical addictions.
    1. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.
    2. An instance of this: had an addiction for fast cars.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 12:13 PM
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I am not a smoker, never have been a smoker and never will be a smoker. I repeat "Smoking is a right!" If it is an addiction, so is my habit of exercising an hour a day to keep healthy. David, Kat and others follow the restrictive rules and smoke in the limited areas where it is allowed.

Too many of us attempt to impose their will on others by dictating what their habits should be. Live and let live and you will live longer.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 12:31 PM
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I agree, as long as a person doesn't infringe on the rights of others, a smoker should be allowed his/her rights. Unfortunately, though, it seems, a select few do infringe on the rights of non smokers, and it is because of them, we have these debates.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old February 6th, 2010, 02:25 PM
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I agree, as long as a person doesn't infringe on the rights of others, a smoker should be allowed his/her rights...
And non-smokers, too, should be reasonably accommodated as long as they don't infringe on the rights of smokers. That's what makes this, the USA, a great country. Our rights are not granted to us by any power. All our government and laws can do is to restrict our rights. Yes, we have the right to smoke.

The best cases of restricting rights are for when the mutually exclusive rights of two parties infringe on each other, such as the right to smoke and the right not to smoke. The best our laws can do, we hope with the wisdom of Solomon, is to impose compromise on both parties. One party likes quiet, the other party likes to play his trombone, to be equitable, we might impose quiet from 10pm to 8am and permit the trombone during the daytime hours. Or for those who exercise their right to smoke, reasonable accommodations where they may smoke, and for those who exercise their right to not smoke, reasonable accommodations where they can be smoke free.

But if we are truly civil, we can agree among ourselves what works and what is fair. Making rules and laws where courtesy and civility should be seen demonstrates a failure of our society.

Live and let live, be reasonable, don't exaggerate, be fair, compromise, be polite and respectful.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 03:09 PM
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And non-smokers, too, should be reasonably accommodated as long as they don't infringe on the rights of smokers. That's what makes this, the USA, a great country. Our rights are not granted to us by any power. All our government and laws can do is to restrict our rights. Yes, we have the right to smoke.

The best cases of restricting rights are for when the mutually exclusive rights of two parties infringe on each other, such as the right to smoke and the right not to smoke. The best our laws can do, we hope with the wisdom of Solomon, is to impose compromise on both parties. One party likes quiet, the other party likes to play his trombone, to be equitable, we might impose quiet from 10pm to 8am and permit the trombone during the daytime hours. Or for those who exercise their right to smoke, reasonable accommodations where they may smoke, and for those who exercise their right to not smoke, reasonable accommodations where they can be smoke free.

But if we are truly civil, we can agree among ourselves what works and what is fair. Making rules and laws where courtesy and civility should be seen demonstrates a failure of our society.

Live and let live, be reasonable, don't exaggerate, be fair, compromise, be polite and respectful.
Rules would not have to be made if people would be courteous toward one another.THAT is the failure of our society-people are only interested in their wants and could care less about others' wants, so unfortunately, rules have to be made.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old February 6th, 2010, 05:13 PM
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I am not a smoker, never have been a smoker and never will be a smoker. I repeat "Smoking is a right!" If it is an addiction, so is my habit of exercising an hour a day to keep healthy. David, Kat and others follow the restrictive rules and smoke in the limited areas where it is allowed.

Too many of us attempt to impose their will on others by dictating what their habits should be. Live and let live and you will live longer.
I don't smoke. Coffee is my addiction. I do agree with you.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 08:21 PM
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Live and let live, be reasonable, don't exaggerate, be fair, compromise, be polite and respectful.
May I have an AMEN!!
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old February 6th, 2010, 09:10 PM
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I also say Amen!
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old February 6th, 2010, 11:09 PM
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Ah, but what would have happened in all those old western movies where the Indian chiefs and the great heroes sat together and smoked the ol' peace pipe if someone had said--' Sorry-- I don't smoke and you blowing smoke my way is beginning to really " peace " me off !"
We'd still be at war and watching the old westerns !!
Wasn't it the great philosopher Rodney King from L.A. who uttered the famous quote " Can't we all just get along ?"
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Old February 7th, 2010, 12:09 PM
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Sorry Kat, I messed up. Caffene and nicotene are both hard words for a retarded soul like me. However, I am sure that you imbibe only in a coffee area and do not provide injury to the non-coffee drinkers.
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Old February 7th, 2010, 12:28 PM
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Sorry Kat, I messed up. Caffene and nicotene are both hard words for a retarded soul like me. However, I am sure that you imbibe only in a coffee area and do not provide injury to the non-coffee drinkers.
I will drink my coffee in front of my nephew and other small child. I'm reckless that way.

The mark of a true coffee addict. I made sure I knew the name of my coffee drink in each country we visited on the Carnival Freedom.

My drink in Portugal is a galão.
My drink in Italy cappuccino.
My drink in Spain café cortado.

The hotel we stayed at post cruise made the best cappuccino. BTW in Europe people think my coffee addiction is normal. I gotta go the coffee just finish brewing.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old February 8th, 2010, 02:22 PM
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The ordinary smoker cast's their STONE in public, so other people know what we are, we are the people huddled outside the bar or restaurant or on certain deck areas doing our thing where "Society" has allowed us to endulge our habit.

But some folks dont take that "respect of the rules" that smokers are allowed this limited freedom.

I just wish those so passionate about smokers that are "doing the right thing" given the rules would be so zealous in life about the other anti social things that afffect us all on a daily basis.

You see I dont always agree with the "live and let live" scenario, as thats why we are in this mess in society, people ignoring things that in the past would have been dealt with by the individual when experienced and not looking to "others" to sort it.

As for the poster to me about their nephews, great retort and logic and you got me there, dear oh dear.

If you are so protective of them from reality and society then I can give you a good link as to how they can become Shaolin Monks
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old February 10th, 2010, 11:47 PM
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And non-smokers, too, should be reasonably accommodated as long as they don't infringe on the rights of smokers. That's what makes this, the USA, a great country. Our rights are not granted to us by any power. All our government and laws can do is to restrict our rights. Yes, we have the right to smoke.

The best cases of restricting rights are for when the mutually exclusive rights of two parties infringe on each other, such as the right to smoke and the right not to smoke. The best our laws can do, we hope with the wisdom of Solomon, is to impose compromise on both parties. One party likes quiet, the other party likes to play his trombone, to be equitable, we might impose quiet from 10pm to 8am and permit the trombone during the daytime hours. Or for those who exercise their right to smoke, reasonable accommodations where they may smoke, and for those who exercise their right to not smoke, reasonable accommodations where they can be smoke free.

But if we are truly civil, we can agree among ourselves what works and what is fair. Making rules and laws where courtesy and civility should be seen demonstrates a failure of our society.

Live and let live, be reasonable, don't exaggerate, be fair, compromise, be polite and respectful.
Are you making an arugment for marijauna, nicotine, or both?

Cheers, Aidan
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Old February 11th, 2010, 04:15 AM
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I believe the cruise lines could greatly help this situation if they designated the rooms on one side of the ship as smoking and the other side as non-smoking. This way the smell from someone smoking on their balcony wouldn't bother someone who hates, or is allergic to smoke on their balcony. Yes, the cruise lines could do a few things different if they wanted to. Someone mentioned the piano bar is where all the smokers gather because it is one of the only bars on the ship that allows smoking. How about rotating the bars that allow smoking so everyone could enjoy the different bars on the ship?

I guess what I am trying to say is that there has to be some give and take between those who smoke and those who don't. We are civilized people and should be able to come to a working arrangement that works for all.

As for those who smoke where they aren't supposed to, There are a few bad apples in every cart and are no worse then non-smokers who sit at smoking tables waving their hands and down grading people for smoking.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old February 11th, 2010, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo1959
And non-smokers, too, should be reasonably accommodated as long as they don't infringe on the rights of smokers. That's what makes this, the USA, a great country. Our rights are not granted to us by any power. All our government and laws can do is to restrict our rights. Yes, we have the right to smoke.

The best cases of restricting rights are for when the mutually exclusive rights of two parties infringe on each other, such as the right to smoke and the right not to smoke. The best our laws can do, we hope with the wisdom of Solomon, is to impose compromise on both parties. One party likes quiet, the other party likes to play his trombone, to be equitable, we might impose quiet from 10pm to 8am and permit the trombone during the daytime hours. Or for those who exercise their right to smoke, reasonable accommodations where they may smoke, and for those who exercise their right to not smoke, reasonable accommodations where they can be smoke free.

But if we are truly civil, we can agree among ourselves what works and what is fair. Making rules and laws where courtesy and civility should be seen demonstrates a failure of our society.

Live and let live, be reasonable, don't exaggerate, be fair, compromise, be polite and respectful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
Are you making an arugment for marijauna, nicotine, or both?

Cheers, Aidan
Logical Fallacies
Logical Fallacies Straw Man Fallacy
A straw man argument is one that misrepresents a position in order to make it appear weaker than it actually is, refutes this misrepresentation of the position, and then concludes that the real position has been refuted. This, of course, is a fallacy, because the position that has been claimed to be refuted is different to that which has actually been refuted; the real target of the argument is untouched by it.

You misrepresented the Solo1959 position by asking him/her is he/she was talking about marijauna. Nothing in the post was talking about marijauna your comments were a straw man argument. marijauna is not legal in most of the USA (certain not without a prescription) so that is a completely different argument then smoking cigarettes. Unless you can point out the part of the post talks about marijauana.;-)
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old February 11th, 2010, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
You misrepresented the Solo1959 position by asking him/her is he/she was talking about marijauna. Nothing in the post was talking about marijauna your comments were a straw man argument. marijauna is not legal in most of the USA (certain not without a prescription) so that is a completely different argument then smoking cigarettes. Unless you can point out the part of the post talks about marijauana.;-)
You've made a mistake, Katlady. My response wasn't a "strawman" argument at all, but a direct response to:

"And non-smokers, too, should be reasonably accommodated as long as they don't infringe on the rights of smokers. That's what makes this, the USA, a great country. Our rights are not granted to us by any power. All our government and laws can do is to restrict our rights. Yes, we have the right to smoke."

The poster says our rights *aren't* granted by any government, but are manifest. In that context, asking about smoking *anthing* is clearly logical.

Cheers, Aidan
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Old February 11th, 2010, 08:12 PM
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You've made a mistake, Katlady. My response wasn't a "strawman" argument at all, but a direct response to:

"And non-smokers, too, should be reasonably accommodated as long as they don't infringe on the rights of smokers. That's what makes this, the USA, a great country. Our rights are not granted to us by any power. All our government and laws can do is to restrict our rights. Yes, we have the right to smoke."

The poster says our rights *aren't* granted by any government, but are manifest. In that context, asking about smoking *anthing* is clearly logical.

Cheers, Aidan
Well, lets discuss the marijuana. First, the government we created in the US was given the authority to limit or restrict our rights if we ask it to do so. That's it. In our wisdom, or lack thereof, we gave the government the power to restrict our use of marijuana, and overall, as a society, we have generally been happy with that restriction, although support for it may be weakening.

So, we HAD the right to smoke marijuana and we as a people asked the government to restrict our right to do so. Because this is (still, for now) a free nation, we can chose to elect people who will continue or who might lift that restriction.

So your confusion was over rights versus laws. No, our government can never lawfully take our rights away from us. We still have the right to smoke marijuana, but have laws restricting that right based on who we chose to make these laws.

We can, should we so choose, elect people and ask them to restrict our right to smoke tobacco. too. In many ways they have already done so.

A cruise ship at sea is a different issue. The cruise line makes the rules that they believe will enable the most people enjoy their vacation. And by far, the vast majority of us follow the rules.

One of those rules is that we may chose to smoke cigarettes on the ship, in certain locations, and we may chose to not smoke cigarettes if we so chose and are provided with areas where we can best be away from cigarettes. Most of us follow those rules.

The problem comes up when a few people break those rules. It might be a small number of passengers who smoke in unauthorized places, and a small number of passengers who complain about any cigarettes they smell anywhere on the ship.

Go back to my post... Live and let live, be reasonable, don't exaggerate, be fair, compromise, be polite and respectful.

Where do you believe our rights come from?
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Old February 11th, 2010, 08:54 PM
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So your confusion was over rights versus laws.
, I never used the word "law" and I'm not confused.

Smokers are drug addicts, period. Smokers smell, period. I don't want to be around them.

It is true that cruise lines allow smelly drug additcs to associate with regular cruisers.

Cheers, Aidan

Last edited by Aidan; February 11th, 2010 at 09:01 PM.
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Old February 11th, 2010, 09:35 PM
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You've made a mistake, Katlady. My response wasn't a "strawman" argument at all, but a direct response to:

"And non-smokers, too, should be reasonably accommodated as long as they don't infringe on the rights of smokers. That's what makes this, the USA, a great country. Our rights are not granted to us by any power. All our government and laws can do is to restrict our rights. Yes, we have the right to smoke."

The poster says our rights *aren't* granted by any government, but are manifest. In that context, asking about smoking *anthing* is clearly logical.

Cheers, Aidan
Oh I know my Logical Fallacies pretty well. The marijuana part is the strawman of the post. You made an incorrect assumption that "anything" meant legal or illegal activity. That the poster was not referring to marijuana in the above post this was you addition. Your question was an attempt to discredit the poster with your strawman (marijuana). You can disagree, but I'm not the one making the mistake. I analyzed legislation for 3 years and politicians love strawmen arguments.
Cheers, Katlady

Originally Posted by Aidan
Are you making an arugment for marijauna, nicotine, or both?

Cheers, Aidan



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Old February 11th, 2010, 09:39 PM
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, I never used the word "law" and I'm not confused.

Smokers are drug addicts, period. Smokers smell, period. I don't want to be around them.

It is true that cruise lines allow smelly drug additcs to associate with regular cruisers.

Cheers, Aidan
This must be a joke so I'm just going to treat as that. Super funny thanks for the laugh.
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Old February 11th, 2010, 11:32 PM
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Oh I know my Logical Fallacies pretty well. The marijuana part is the strawman of the post. You made an incorrect assumption that "anything" meant legal or illegal activity.
Cruisemate A: "I mean anything .. there is not one substance on earth on in the universe that I'm not talking about .. anything means anything."

Cruisemate B: "Even marijuana?"

Katlady: Strawman! Strawman! A didn't say the word marijuana.

You may have read legislation for a zillion years, but you're still wrong, Katlady!

Cheers, Aidan
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Old February 12th, 2010, 02:41 AM
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Cruisemate A: "I mean anything .. there is not one substance on earth on in the universe that I'm not talking about .. anything means anything."

Cruisemate B: "Even marijuana?"


Katlady: Strawman! Strawman! A didn't say the word marijuana.

You may have read legislation for a zillion years, but you're still wrong, Katlady!

Cheers, Aidan
First off what's "A didn't say the word marijuana" mean.

Second
the posts in red don't appear anywhere in the thread. If they do please point out the names of the posters who said these.

Third
I'm right you are wrong! And I'm rubber your glue whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

Since we are going there anyway. BTW I'm done explaining logical fallacies to you. If you want to know more here is a website. Cheers, Katlady
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Old March 1st, 2010, 03:13 PM
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Smokers Rights - If your on a cruise ship than your "rights" are defined by the rules of the ship. These rules should be enforced. If you don't like the rules then you pick another line. But a passenger has a right to expect the cruise line/ship to enforce whatever rules they have.

As to whether cruise ships should do this or that it's up to us as customers to pass alone our thoughts and desires. Smart companies will do everything they can to make both sides happy. If they can't, one would think they would side with the majority. One would think....

As for Smokers Rights in general - Yes I think that smokers have the right to smoke until their lungs turn black. However this right should not ever supersede the rights of non smoker to have a safe, healthy environment.

There are two things in my life that make me very opinionated on this subject. First I have asthma. I stopped going to casinos in Atlantic City because the smoke would make me sick. They have since passed laws increasing the non-smoking areas and for the most part these laws are enforced.

The second reason is that as a child I watched someone dear to me die of lung cancer caused by secondary smoke from her husband who hand chain smoked for 40+ years. He passed of lung cancer several years prior to her. She never smoked.
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Old March 1st, 2010, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by beachbum13 View Post
Smokers Rights - If your on a cruise ship than your "rights" are defined by the rules of the ship.
I have to disagree, no-one, no government, no company, has the power to grant "rights" to anyone else. if you are on a cruise ship [or in any privately owed building] then you are subject to the rules of that cruise ship. If you live in a country, you are subject to the laws of the country. You still have the RIGHT, but rules and laws by their very nature only serve to restrict rights. But, yes, you MUST obey the rules of the ship or get kicked off, plain and simple. But that doesn't take your RIGHT away. You agree by accepting the ticket to obey the rules which restrict your rights.

So, yes, smokers must accept and agree to the restriction on their rights in which they can only smoke in certain places under certain conditions, and non-smokers must accept and agree to the restriction on their right in which they must understand and accept that other people will be smoking.
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Originally Posted by beachbum13 View Post
These rules should be enforced. If you don't like the rules then you pick another line. But a passenger has a right to expect the cruise line/ship to enforce whatever rules they have.
Absolutely! Goes both ways.
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...Smart companies will do everything they can to make both sides happy.....
That's what laws and rules do, they try to make a compromise both sides have to give a little.
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Old March 1st, 2010, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum13
Smokers Rights - If your on a cruise ship than your "rights" are defined by the rules of the ship.

I have to disagree, no-one, no government, no company, has the power to grant "rights" to anyone else. if you are on a cruise ship [or in any privately owed building] then you are subject to the rules of that cruise ship. If you live in a country, you are subject to the laws of the country. You still have the RIGHT, but rules and laws by their very nature only serve to restrict rights. But, yes, you MUST obey the rules of the ship or get kicked off, plain and simple. But that doesn't take your RIGHT away. You agree by accepting the ticket to obey the rules which restrict your rights.

So, yes, smokers must accept and agree to the restriction on their rights in which they can only smoke in certain places under certain conditions, and non-smokers must accept and agree to the restriction on their right in which they must understand and accept that other people will be smoking.

You're splitting hairs..... Depends on your definitions of rights.

At any rate people feel the way they do and a million posts will not change somebody's mind. I'm not here to argue. I was just stating my opinion.
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Old March 1st, 2010, 06:01 PM
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Beachbum, I share your opinion about the smoking. But you say, "I'm not here to argue. I was just stating my opinion." If one person states an opinion, and the other person states an opinion that is not in agreement with the first, then that is by definition an argument. At least that's how lawyers view the art of advocacy. :-)
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