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  #31 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 04:24 AM
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Aidan,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
If you truly value facts, then leave emotion out of it and argue facts.
Yes, argue facts -- not wishful thinking from the DNC

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
We are in a foreign civil war.
Wrong. Rather, we are in a war with an enemy that is afraid to stand up and fight, so it resorts to tactics of terror conducted by surreptitious orgaizations that have no official national affiliation. And it's an enemy whose goal is nothing less than world domination that's headquartered in Tehran. And if we abandon the fight "over there," that enemy will bring the fight back here -- as happened before, on "9/11"....

Now, I'll grant you that the war that we are now fighting "over there" is not the war that we actually went "over there" to fight. Nonetheless, it's a war that we need to win because our national security depends upon nohting less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
We can't win.
Well, we certainly won't win if we defeat ourselves by bickering about what to do while tha battle wages on. We need to recognize that the urgency of the situation demands action now rather than a perfect plan for action three years from now. The more we continue to stall and bicker, the worse the situation will get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
This is the longest conflict in America's history, other than Vietnam.
No, far from it. The Revolutionary War was longer. The Cold War was longer. The internal dispute over slavery raged for decades before the outbreak of hostilities. The war against the Seminoles lasted several decades. And in reality, World War I and World War II were longer, though we were not officially parties to the beginnings of either.

But in truth, the length of a war, or conflict, or whatever else you want to brand it is not the real issue. I'll grant you that a few misguided decisions probably have protracted the war, but that happens at all levels in every war. Commanders all the way up to the level of commanders in chief invaribly must make decisions based upon information that's incomplete and sometimes imprecise even though it's the best information available at the time, and that leads to some bad decisions. Nonetheless, I doubt that you, or I, or anybody else on this planet could make better decisions based upon the same information that they have available in real time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
It is not yet the most expensive (in real dollars), but probably will end up surpassing WWII, as President Bush is demanding billions and billions more...
Not when you adjust the figures for inflation, including the resconsruction of both Germany and Japan after formal combat ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
... to support the Shiites. Or is it the Sunnis? Well, whichever,...
So you don't even know who the players are, and you come here and portray yourself as an expert on all these events???

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
... it is gonna be long and expensive and is decreasing American security, not helping.
Not exactly! Long, maybe, but this is the least expensive war that we have ever fought in terms of consumption of national resources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I'm not willing to sacrifice more American's for another country's conflict AND weaken America at the same time.
If that statement were true, you would be pulling with the rest of us to finish the job so that the lives given in Iraq and Afghanistan would not be lost in vain. But it's much more fun to try to sabotage the effort, isn't it?

Personally, I think it's time for some indictments for treason -- defined in our constitution to include "giving aid and comfort" to our enemies in time of war -- because that's exactly what many on the political left are doing. At least the lunatic fringe on the right has had the good sense to remain silent on this issue rather than undermining the effort.

Fortunately, this decision is not in your hands. I fear the horrors that would follow if we were to do what you propose. Doesn't the fact that even Hillary Clinton opposes your course of action tell you something?

Norm.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 04:26 AM
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Back to the British sailors and marines..........

A few observations.

Hostage-taking seems to be the only thing the Iranian government is good at.

I'm all for action, but with the watered-down U.N. resolution, what can the British really do? A rescue mission? We don't know where the hostages are being held, for one. Also, the U.S. tried a rescue mission in '79, and it didn't work due to the unpredictable sandstorms in the region.

Not sure why the U.S. is standing by, except for the reasons mentioned in the previous paragraph. However to say that the U.S. is powerless in this situation isn't correct. You don't necessarily need boots on the ground to administer a good old-fashioned wooping. While the Army may have the bulk of its troops in Iraq, the Navy and Air Force are quite capable of administering said wooping.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. If history is any indication, I predict that the crisis will end with a prisoner exchange.

Dean
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mean Dean
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. If history is any indication, I predict that the crisis will end with a prisoner exchange.

Dean
That is the most likely outcome. Despite the neo-con blustering, we don't have the soldiers to successfully attack Iran -- doesn't mean it won't happen. The nuclear option is a teenage boy wet-dream fantasy (Russia and China are our teenage nuclear opposition). There really is no rational choice but to negotiate.

Shrug, Aidan
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 04:54 AM
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Aidan,

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Originally Posted by You
You might not know these facts, but the 9/11 attack was carried out by mostly Saudi radicals, associated with Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban...]
True so far. Nonetheless, you are putting WAY too much weight on the fact that these individuals happened to be Saudis rather than Iraqis or Afghans or Iranians or any other nationality. Al Qaeda routinely recruits across national boundaries, and even has some Americans in its ranks, but it's not much different than Americans who get involved as fighters in various conflicts to which the United States is not a party by answering ads in Soldier of Fortune or other similar magazines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
and not related to Iraq.
Wrong. In fact, representatives of Osama bin Laden met routinely with Saddam's henchment, including representatives of his secret police, to collaborate on various matters. An indictment by the Department of Justice in 1997 -- that is, during the tenure of Bill Clinton and Janet Reno -- documented this intercourse, so you cannot claim that it's tainted by the current administration. Al Qaeda also operated training bases in Iraq, including a notorious facility with an old airliner fuselage that they routinely used to train terrorists how to hijack aircraft and how to control passengers while doing so. Saddam's regime also routinely granted unrestricted passage to Al Qaeda's operatives travelling between Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia and routinely granted political assylum to Al Qaeda's operatives whom other countries wanted to put on trial for various crimes, including hijackings and bombings, and it appears. So the links were many, and Saddam's regime was quite useful to Al Qaeda even if not quite of the same ideology. And it's very probable that Saddam's intelligence service also funnelled significant amounts of cash to Al Qaeda and its affilliates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
You might also not know that Saddam Hussein was a secular dictator, fond of alcohol, women, and pornography,...
True so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
...and not allied with the fundamentalist Taliban.
Well, "not allied" is a rather strong statement that's not exactly supported by the evidence. There were no tangible direct ties, but Al Qaeda sure provided a link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Prior to the American intervention, Al Quada was not active in Iraq.
Wrong. See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Today, of course, it is a new fertile training ground.
Wrong. You don't train soldiers in the middle of a war zone because its too dangerous. You train them elsewhere and then deploy them into the war zone to fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Instead of containing Al Quada in Afghanistan, Bush has moved them 1,000 miles west.
Al Qaeda was never contained in Afghanistan. But what really has happened s that the threat of a republican Iraqi government that would not be supportive of Al Qaeda caused Al Qaeda to sound the call to battle, pulling its fighters into action there. And those fighters are not free to strike elsewhere, inclding here in the United States as they did on "9/11."

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I understand you don't like these facts. But, facts they are.
No, not facts at all for the reasons that I outlined above. Rather, your assertions represent wishful thinking on somebody's part.

And this is about when Bill O'Reilly would be inquiring about the Cool-Aid that you have been drinking, so I think that I had best quit.

Norm.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev22:17
Aidan,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
If you truly value facts, then leave emotion out of it and argue facts.
Yes, argue facts -- not wishful thinking from the DNC

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
We are in a foreign civil war.
Wrong. Rather, we are in a war with an enemy that is afraid to stand up and fight, so it resorts to tactics of terror conducted by surreptitious orgaizations that have no official national affiliation. And it's an enemy whose goal is nothing less than world domination that's headquartered in Tehran. And if we abandon the fight "over there," that enemy will bring the fight back here -- as happened before, on "9/11"....

Now, I'll grant you that the war that we are now fighting "over there" is not the war that we actually went "over there" to fight. Nonetheless, it's a war that we need to win because our national security depends upon nohting less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
We can't win.
Well, we certainly won't win if we defeat ourselves by bickering about what to do while tha battle wages on. We need to recognize that the urgency of the situation demands action now rather than a perfect plan for action three years from now. The more we continue to stall and bicker, the worse the situation will get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
This is the longest conflict in America's history, other than Vietnam.
No, far from it. The Revolutionary War was longer. The Cold War was longer. The internal dispute over slavery raged for decades before the outbreak of hostilities. The war against the Seminoles lasted several decades. And in reality, World War I and World War II were longer, though we were not officially parties to the beginnings of either.

But in truth, the length of a war, or conflict, or whatever else you want to brand it is not the real issue. I'll grant you that a few misguided decisions probably have protracted the war, but that happens at all levels in every war. Commanders all the way up to the level of commanders in chief invaribly must make decisions based upon information that's incomplete and sometimes imprecise even though it's the best information available at the time, and that leads to some bad decisions. Nonetheless, I doubt that you, or I, or anybody else on this planet could make better decisions based upon the same information that they have available in real time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
It is not yet the most expensive (in real dollars), but probably will end up surpassing WWII, as President Bush is demanding billions and billions more...
Not when you adjust the figures for inflation, including the resconsruction of both Germany and Japan after formal combat ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
... to support the Shiites. Or is it the Sunnis? Well, whichever,...
So you don't even know who the players are, and you come here and portray yourself as an expert on all these events???

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
... it is gonna be long and expensive and is decreasing American security, not helping.
Not exactly! Long, maybe, but this is the least expensive war that we have ever fought in terms of consumption of national resources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I'm not willing to sacrifice more American's for another country's conflict AND weaken America at the same time.
If that statement were true, you would be pulling with the rest of us to finish the job so that the lives given in Iraq and Afghanistan would not be lost in vain. But it's much more fun to try to sabotage the effort, isn't it?

Personally, I think it's time for some indictments for treason -- defined in our constitution to include "giving aid and comfort" to our enemies in time of war -- because that's exactly what many on the political left are doing. At least the lunatic fringe on the right has had the good sense to remain silent on this issue rather than undermining the effort.

Fortunately, this decision is not in your hands. I fear the horrors that would follow if we were to do what you propose. Doesn't the fact that even Hillary Clinton opposes your course of action tell you something?

Norm.
I guess if you can't see the difference between American kids dying and American treasury being drained versus the "cold war" or the "decades of dispute over slavery" ... btw, the actual Civil War was only 4 years. One is arguing and one is shedding blood and money. And the Iraq Civil War is costing plenty of blood and money. With no end in sight.

I never understood the argument that "mistakes have been made and we must keep making more mistakes or our prior mistakes will have been in vain". "The only way to honor our brave dead is to have more die, and more, and more, otherwise it is all in vain". I know conservatives believe it, but it doesn't make sense to me.

What is our military objective in Iraq?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 05:08 AM
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Dean,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Back to the British sailors and marines..........
Yes, good idea!

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
A few observations.

Hostage-taking seems to be the only thing the Iranian government is good at.

I'm all for action, but with the watered-down U.N. resolution, what can the British really do? A rescue mission? We don't know where the hostages are being held, for one. Also, the U.S. tried a rescue mission in '79, and it didn't work due to the unpredictable sandstorms in the region.
This does not require yet another useless resolution from the United Nations. It just requires decisive action.

As to the Carter "rescue" fiasco, the problem was not an unexpected sandstorm. Rather, the problem was a force that was not sufficient to carry out the mission in the face of the likely problems that the mission would encounter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Not sure why the U.S. is standing by, except for the reasons mentioned in the previous paragraph. However to say that the U.S. is powerless in this situation isn't correct. You don't necessarily need boots on the ground to administer a good old-fashioned wooping. While the Army may have the bulk of its troops in Iraq, the Navy and Air Force are quite capable of administering said wooping.
The Navy is doing a major show of force, with at least two carrier battle groups now operating off the Iranian coast. But a "go" signal is long overdue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. If history is any indication, I predict that the crisis will end with a prisoner exchange.
History will not judge inaction kindly on this one kindly.

Norm.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 09:57 AM
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Aidan,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
That is the most likely outcome. Despite the neo-con blustering, we don't have the soldiers to successfully attack Iran -- doesn't mean it won't happen.
I really am not convinced that "lack of troops" is an issue. It would mean a change in deployment cycles, for sure, but an end to the Iranian support for the insurgency in Iraq would cause a tremendous reduction in the problems that now exist there, freeing up per haps two thirds of the present occupation force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
The nuclear option is a teenage boy wet-dream fantasy (Russia and China are our teenage nuclear opposition). There really is no rational choice but to negotiate.
Well, Russia anyway. China does not want yet another nuclear power ruled by irrational totalitarians at its back door. I also have not seen any indication that China is supplying components, which would create an economic interest. The practical reality, though, is twofold.

>> 1. If we strike the reactor and other nuclear production facilities, there's very little that Russia will be able to do about it.

>> 2. If it becomes clear that Iran is a nuclear threat, Israel is likely to take care of business -- especially with a regime in control of Iran that has publicly stated on numerous occasions that it seeks the annihilation of Israel while denying repeatedly that the Holocaust ever occurred If that happens, the whole powder keg that is the Middle East could blow up.

So on the whole, our best option probably is to take care of business ourselves.

Norm.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 01:14 PM
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You guys are doing pretty good at keeping this an interesting dialougue, with limited attacking. It sure is a subject that we all seem to feel pretty stongly about.

I am very curious as to how Aiden has come to his conclusion that one of the Iranian hostage keepers wasn't Ahmadinejad. It sounds like he has some inside info. Was he there? How does he know for sure? Is his truth reliable or is it just speculation? The person who was there might be mistaken, but I will put my faith in him above someone who has made no claims to have been there.

Anyway I support those who are there and keep them in my prayers. God says to pray for our enemies too. That's the hard part, but one we are called to do.

Phyll
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 02:35 PM
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I just received this from Jim's cousin. Since it is on topic, I thought I would share.>




> Just wanted to ask for one more show of strength. Doug made it home
>safely Saturday morning and back on solid ground. So grateful for all your
>prayers and care packages while he was in Iraq on the Oil Platforms.
>
> Here is the deal, this morning on CNN we got a glimpse of the British
>Sailors that are being held for entering Iranian waters. These sailors were
>never more than a couple thousand yards from the oil platforms where Doug
>was for six months. He instantly recognized one of them as one of the teams
>that did some joint training on his platfrom off and on.
>
> The "Go Plats" as they are referred to are right at the edge of the
>boundary of Iran and Iraq waters. Their teams were constantly in "wolverine
>status" meaning there were incoming vessels approaching the platforms night
>and day. Those sailors and our US teams on the boats were constantly
>running interference to keep the plats from being blown up or subject to
>hostile fire/takeover.
>
> The chill I got from realizing how close my sailor was to this very real
>hostage situation made me think that possibly I could ask all of you for
>one more round of prayers for these British Sailors/Marines and their
>families.
> Somewhere there is a
>wife/mother/father/brother/sister/daughter/son/in-laws and a huge support
>group of Friends right now afraid to leave their homes and miss that phone
>call that will tell them everything is OK and that their sailor will be
>coming home in one piece.
>
> I can not fathom the long hours of worry and heartache these people are
>going thru. Please take a minute and send them a prayer of strength.
>
> Love to you all,
> BJ & Doug
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 02:46 PM
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I don't disagree with the post but I do remember we're not supposed to bring up politics on this site. Why do some people get their political messages removed and others do not? Hmmmmmmm......

I have been repremanded for less a couple of times.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 03:21 PM
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Thank you for the history lesson, learned a lot there, but you know what?

It dont mean "smuck" in the "global" battle we fight and how these "hostages" are now placed. They have become part of some sicko's political game

As free societies we deal with some people that are just against us and OUR way of life, thats their aim,,,embarrass us or kill us. 911 was the major start of that, as they hit non military targets in the US.

We also deal with those screwing us around to get yet another couple of billion "in aid", but still want to be our friends,,,yeah right.

Right now these British naval personell are being made to parade towards "cameras, letters and "apologies"" in something that can now only be sorted by politicians or by force.

Me, like others in the forces was taught... do what they want you to do to survive,,,,as no-one believes it...their propeganda back home and what they have made you say. We see it for what it is, crap you are made to say.

Having served in the Falklands and first Gulf, my heart goes out to those placed in that position of decrying their country, just to survive amongst barbarians.

So, no matter how many enforced letters or tv statements you make them do...WE KNOW THE TRUTH.,,,,and we remember.

And you will pay
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 04:27 PM
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Phyll--

This is from Wikipedia:

Several former hostages and the former President of Iran have identified Ahmadinejad as one of the key individuals holding Americans inside the embassy. In a secret report specifically investigating this issue, the CIA declared this identification "Not proven".

If it was him, he was given an awful lot of responsibility/authority as a very young man. But as I said before, what's the difference? This issue is a complete red herring with regard to the current situation. Hostage-taking is a simple, often effective gambit. You don't have to be a "veteran" at it to use it.

DavidBgood:

I don't think anyone believes that the obviously forced statements by the hostages have any credibility. Just as I don't believe that the statements wrenched out of prisoners at Gitmo or at secret CIA prisons, or at prisons run by other countries to whom we send prisoners under our "extraordinary rendition" policy have any credibility. And, in truth, is a prisoner who is not charged, who is denied habeas corpus, who is denied a lawyer, and who "disappears" to unkown parts of the world in our name anything other than a hostage?

And one more thing:

Even though we've been told by our Attorney General that the Geneva Conventions are "quaint," I am one who believes in them strongly. Each of the Conventions (there are four of them, each pertaining to a different aspect of war) contains one article in common, known as Common Article Three. In addition to prohibiting torture and hostage-taking, it prohibits "Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment."

The International Red Cross has always interpreted this to mean that photographing detainees, especially for the purposes of propaganda, is a direct violation of Common Article Three. Given that the photographs have been taken, does running the tapes every ten minutes on cable news, and running photos in every newspaper in the country in itself constitute a violation? I believe it does. It is hypocritical to say, in effect, "Well I know pictures aren't supposed to be taken, but since they have, we're at liberty to run the crap out of them."

Shame.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 04:51 PM
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How can the Geneva Conference Statutes be enforced when many of the participants aren't official governmental units? For instance, the kidnapping and beheading of civilians and service people. The perpertrators are (were) a mix of ones who are members of a government and civilians. Is that what we should do? Allow a group of patriotic and zealous American civilians to go over to the countries in which we are in physical tensions and allow the said group to do the things our military cannot do according to the Statutes?

Also, IMHO, a good reason for going over to Irag, I believe if one was to research the past, the former and late dictator was responsible for an assination attempt on the life of a past President of the United States of America!! What did the United Nations do? You are right... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING That alone is good enough to capture Husssein. you don't hear THAT in the liberal, left wing media, do you?

The USA needs to get out of the UN and kick their a$$ out of our country as well.
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Old March 31st, 2007, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyllbo
I am very curious as to how Aiden has come to his conclusion that one of the Iranian hostage keepers wasn't Ahmadinejad.
The CIA analyzed the photo of the man who resembles Ahmadinejad and concluded it is not him. You can see the photos on CNN using google. There is a definite resemblance, although the noses are quite different.

Haha, I know, that just means plastic surgery!

Wasn't one of the hostage-takers female? It was Hillary Clinton!

Eyeroll ... this is the mindset.

Cheers, Aidan
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehawk
Also, IMHO, a good reason for going over to Irag, I believe if one was to research the past, the former and late dictator was responsible for an assination attempt on the life of a past President of the United States of America!! What did the United Nations do? You are right... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING That alone is good enough to capture Husssein. you don't hear THAT in the liberal, left wing media, do you?
Um, Hussein is DEAD. The so-called liberal media reported his execution. If killing him is the latest neo-con reason for being in the Iraq Civil War, then I suppose we agree our mission is accomplished and our boys can get the hell out of that deathtrap.

Cheers, Aidan
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Old March 31st, 2007, 05:19 PM
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Aidan, I can agree with you on the point that Hussein is dead. Unfortunately, while our forces were, and are, trying to assure that a democratic government can be put into place to rule democratically, the insurgents, as they are called by the media, are now attacking the US troops. IMHO, that is reason enough to stay and put down these threats. That is similar to Iran taking the British sailors hostage, which is cause for the British to consider military action. Unfortunately, these insurgents aren't acting under the cover of a government so the US cannot identify a country in which to attempt to negotiate a settlement of sort.

Here, in the USA, when a person commits a crime, which is what these insurgents are doing when they attack, maim, kill a service person or US civilian, they are placed into custody and justice takes over. In Iraq, our OWN citizens back here, seem to believe that we should just turn our backs on this onslaught and get out of that country, allowing said perpetrators to get away with harming our citizens that are over there doing a job, be it a military or civilian one.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehawk
Aidan, I can agree with you on the point that Hussein is dead. Unfortunately, while our forces were, and are, trying to assure that a democratic government can be put into place to rule democratically, the insurgents, as they are called by the media, are now attacking the US troops. IMHO, that is reason enough to stay and put down these threats. That is similar to Iran taking the British sailors hostage, which is cause for the British to consider military action. Unfortunately, these insurgents aren't acting under the cover of a government so the US cannot identify a country in which to attempt to negotiate a settlement of sort.

Here, in the USA, when a person commits a crime, which is what these insurgents are doing when they attack, maim, kill a service person or US civilian, they are placed into custody and justice takes over. In Iraq, our OWN citizens back here, seem to believe that we should just turn our backs on this onslaught and get out of that country, allowing said perpetrators to get away with harming our citizens that are over there doing a job, be it a military or civilian one.
Yup, our new mission is to fight the Iraq Civil War to the bloody end. It may take 50 years and bankrupt the USA, but many on the right are convinced we must sacrifice our soldiers and money for it.

BTW, Iraq *has* a democratic government. If you recall, President Bush has crowed about that.

Cheers, Aidan
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 05:56 PM
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Here's a larger issue to ponder.

Should the U.S. try to remake Iraq in its own image. Or for that matter, the rest of the world?

Is it the right thing to do........?

Dean
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old March 31st, 2007, 07:23 PM
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I believe that each country should be free to pursue and decide upon which path it is to trod, providing that it does so peacefully, doesn't try to impose its beliefs upon other countries and does not cause outrage by other countries.

Yes, I know who I just described.
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Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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Old March 31st, 2007, 07:37 PM
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Dean, Is it freedom we seek for these people or to remake them.
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Old March 31st, 2007, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne Russo
Dean, Is it freedom we seek for these people or to remake them.
During the buildup to the quagmire in 2002 and early 2003, "seeking freedom for the Iraqi people" was NOT one of the reasons given for the urgency of war. It was all about WMD and nuclear weapons.

Also, you will recall, during the Reagan administration, the USA supported Hussein's dictatorship and lauded it. Mr. Rumsfield visited and congratulated Hussein. What about the people then?

I think you are kidding yourself if you think our government is fretting over the Iraqi people. The fact is those in power thought overthrowing Hussein would be easy and it turned into a civil war and let Al Quada in. And now they are stuck and don't know what to do.

Cheers, Aidan
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Old March 31st, 2007, 08:43 PM
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Aiden,

I believe that our government has tried to see the best in all leaders. It is not like they try to p*** off everyone. Over the years, many leaders have tried make nice with us (We have money for them)but when people like Saddam do things that just can not be overlooked then others look to us to do something.

You must understand that the American people can not be told everything when we are in active combat. It would defeat the purpose, but once it is over, then the stories of how we helped these people, and gave them the freedom to go about their everyday life, in peace, will hopefully come out.

Sadly, The info that is coming out, is from people who have an agenda. It would be terrible for the elections next year, if suddenly there was peace in the Middle East. I don't think there will ever be total peace, but if we as a country, can do just a little bit to help, it's a good day.

Tonight, the love of my life sleeps in a country that without our help would have been destroyed by Saddam. Today it is a thriving place, with happy people, who are able to worship who they want, raise their children the way they want, and make a living, and provide for their families. The US has done many good things over the years, because we are basically good people.

Cheers to you as well
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Old March 31st, 2007, 08:46 PM
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Adian, at last, the last two paragraphs of your last post was based upon the reality of the situation. Good
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Cruised more times than I can remember.

Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Courage and perserverance have a magical talisman; before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into the air.

Pick your company wisely! Hang around people who are going to help you become all God created you to be.
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Old March 31st, 2007, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne Russo
Today it is a thriving place, with happy people, who are able to worship who they want, raise their children the way they want, and make a living, and provide for their families.
Why do you suppose there are no scheduled airline flights to a country that "is a thriving place, with happy people, who are able to worship who they want, raise their children the way they want, and make a living, and provide for their families." You make it sound like Cuba or the old Soviet Union!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne Russo
The US has done many good things over the years, because we are basically good people.
All people are basically good people, not just Americans. But when people and governments do bad things, it is important to notice them instead of just being a cheerleader. The US did support Hussein. We did give a million dollars to Bin Laden to help him train terrorists (he turned on us, go figure). We did support Noriega. We did install the Shah of Iran.

These are just historical facts. I wish we had not done these evil things. Perhaps 9/11 would not have happened if we had not, who knows.

But we can demand better from our government.

Cheers, Aidan
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Old March 31st, 2007, 09:35 PM
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There are scheduled flights. People are free to go and come as they please. Oh you think he is still in Iraq. No he has moved to Kuwait for his flight home.

Actually the airport in Baghdad was open for a time, but had to be closed, because it was placing passengers in danger.

We just think differently Aidan. I choose to think of the positive things, and you have a laundry list of all the bad. Does not make either of us wrong, just shows that we think differently.
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Old March 31st, 2007, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
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There are scheduled flights. People are free to go and come as they please. Oh you think he is still in Iraq. No he has moved to Kuwait for his flight home.
Ahhhh Yes, I thought he was still in Iraq. God bless, I'm glad he is OK and getting out of there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne Russo
We just think differently Aidan. I choose to think of the positive things, and you have a laundry list of all the bad. Does not make either of us wrong, just shows that we think differently.
Oh, I appreciate the good stuff too, Luanne, but I'm a very passionate person. Life is not all blue skys and candy, and many humans profit even under the worst of regimes, as others suffer. It is righteous to take note of the suffering and try to help.

Cheers, Aidan
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Old March 31st, 2007, 10:15 PM
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This is scary Aidan. You and I are starting to think alike.

I am also glad Jim is getting out of there, but the truth be known, he told me last night, he hated leaving his guys behind, and a job unfinished. The only satisfaction is knowing that he had just passed the torch to someone else to carry for awhile. This was his 5th tour to Iraq since 1989. It will not be his last. With any luck, things will soon start coming into place. But, there will always be other places that need our help, and I am sure I will watch him go to those.

You mentioned passion. I to have passion. For my love, for my country, and especially for those who are in combat, and for those who have gone before them. Passion can also describe an American soldier. They are the best trained in the world. They give up so much to serve all of you, and they ask for so little. They do ask for the support of the American people. Unfortunaly they don't always get it, do they proud vets of Vietnam? You know, Jim once told me that his worst fear was not dieing, because he would have done it for his country, but to come back here to the states, and not be welcomed. How sad is that?

As far as the British soldiers, who have been kidnapped. They are in our prayers tonight. When a soldier is in trouble, it does not matter what uniform they wear. They all are hurt by it.
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Old March 31st, 2007, 10:19 PM
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Luanne,

Tell DH we are so glad he is home! And tell him THANKS from me! We will give you a few days to catch up, but after that, we want the man online!

Melody

PS Just a few more hours...I can see you doing the Happy Dance!
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Old March 31st, 2007, 10:26 PM
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I am actually not dancing yet. It is a coping thing I have developed over the years. I refuse to think about it, until the last minute, because I will get nothing done.
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Old March 31st, 2007, 10:37 PM
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Well I know you have a special dinner planned, so tell us what's fer supper! When my DS came home, he wanted chicken and dumplings!

Melody
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