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  #31 (permalink)  
Old August 10th, 2009, 12:24 PM
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Delft,

You have really hit the nail on the head and this concept is SO important because I kept thinking about it the entire time I was reading the Hagel-Smith transcript.

I understand and agree with you that drinking is not what cruises are about for the vast majority of cruisers. I was only using that as a "what if" scenario so I could compare cruises to casinos and ski lodges. Having a ship full of boozers would be a terrible experience for most people - exactly as you describe.

But here is the sad truth - on almost any cruise you are going to find a small contingent of mostly younger adults who plan to do, and manage to do a lot of drinking during their cruise.

These people usually find each other on each cruise, because they are same ones closing down the casino and the disco night after night.

That was exactly the case in the Hagel-Smith case. Jennifer testifies that they closed down the casino at least one or two nights, and then went to the disco afterwards. That was where they met the three guys who helped George back., but I don't want to delve into the case yet again except to say this - it didn't do the Smiths any good that they fell in with that crowd. The Smiths were older by about 10 years than the three guys, and were married. They should have tried a little harder to enjoy Europe and put the booze away after a certain hour. Like most cruisers do.

The point is this small group of people who do so much drinking are often the same people who end up in trouble for fist-fights, etc. They are not well-adjusted family people, they are usually in or just out of college, used to spending nights drinking for as long as they can, and they like to party. They are also the ones you see that will drink beyond a reasonable point.

I personally never see these people, because I don't do that. But I know they exist. Especially on shorter cruises over weekends, you have a larger group like this. This is one reason Royal Caribbean ended short cruises out of Los Angeles, now only offering four-day and longer cruises.

I wouldn't miss these people.

I could suggest that the cruise lines could just announce that all bars will close at a certain hour if I thought it would end a lot of these extemporaneous problems that crop up so out of proportion to the vast majority of cruise experiences.

But once again you then fall into the trap of limiting the personal liberties of an entire group of passengers just because of a few people. The next step after closing all the bars at a certain hour is imposing a ship curfew... and that then becomes oppresive and puts the cruise line into a police mentality onboard.

And guess what would happen if it became known that cruise ships close their bars at a certain hour - far more people would then sneak even more alcohol onboard so they could continuee to drink. You don't end the problem, you just drive it underground, so to speak.

So, the bottom line for me keeps coming back to one thing - you can't control people enough that it makes sense to absolve them of personal responsibility for their actions. In the end, even though it is a dangerous world, you can't rely on big brother to make every situation completely safe - there is no such thing as a completely safe world - even on a cruise ship.

Delft - thank you for also pointing out that my words carry weight. The truth is that I want to come here and be able to discuss topics like everyone else. I am going to change my signiture file to say something along those lines.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old August 10th, 2009, 01:41 PM
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Hey Paul,

you know what one idea is? We have a contest to come up with the best "private Citizen Paul Motter name". or the best "Coments made as a private citizen tag line".

That would be good fun, I remember doing this for a friend who was writting but did not want to write using their real name.

The only good thing about that cruise that was almost ruined was at least a core group of hard drinkers were dumped off in Nasseau ( it meant two days left of relative calm ) and I remember they also boarded extra security in Miami for the rest of the cruise, ( who ultimately threw off several passengers in Nasseau) But for most, those first few days of antics kind of spoiled it for the rest, but the cruise lines was also responsible, as they heavily advertised "pub crawls" and didnt stop for example at the hairy chest contest some one from mooning themself,the cruise director said dont do it again, but they did it several more times, in front of many kids. To me they should have disqualified. It was a really weak cruise director on that ship, and it was not something I have seen ever to that degree before. I remember when we complained the head of cruise services said that yes there was more partying oriented activities on board because it was spring break for the colleges, but we pointed out to him, that it was also spring breaks for younger kids and young teens and we were not to thrilled. I think they realized that in part they contributed to the mess as once extra security came on board, I noticed the servers were not serving in the same reckless manner as they had in the first few days of the cruise. I remember a HUGE line up complaining about that display at the pool, problem was there was MANY families on board as it was spring break, but it was also spring break for colleges in America, and one in particular from New York. I kind of wonder where these kids get the money to drink to that degree? My kid almost has a coronary in a bar when he pays 6 bucks for a beer, it severly limits his alcohol consumption lol!

Me, I am just to cheap to spend for booze on the ship, I bought DS and his girlfriend one of those party drinks at the pool .....cause I wanted to have one of the souvenir glasses! They were less than impressed with the drinks, kind of weak they said, but I got my glass!
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Old August 10th, 2009, 02:37 PM
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Paul..I think us regular posters understand your perspectives but an infrequent poster may not..I think you sometimes bend over backwards to present both sides to try to remain an objective journalist

how did Walter Cronkite survived all those years without expressing a personal opinion? (except when the man landed on the moon and the JFK situation in Dallas)
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Old August 10th, 2009, 02:55 PM
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I think this thread both asked, and, aswered questions in a thoughtful, and consice manner....it's nice to have these give and take threads, with most people thinking they learned something from it..kudo's to all of you...
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Old August 10th, 2009, 03:28 PM
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I agree trip very much.

Life is a continual journey of learning and for those who think other wise, it must be a sad life. So many points of view, so many diverse, rich life expieriences, some sad, some happy, so odd and some not so odd. We can learn so much from each other, about each other and that only adds to the wonderment of life it self.
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Old August 10th, 2009, 05:29 PM
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and you thought this was just a board about cruising
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Old October 1st, 2010, 02:02 PM
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There are some cruisers who think they can just go on a cruise and get completly drunk and think they are safe on the balcony. All you need to do is put a chair against the railing and climb on top of the rail and you can accidently fall off. I think that the honeymoon couple argued and he fell over-board.
It only took a second for that to happen.

The real sad part is that the wife DID NOT REPORT THAT HER HUSBAND HAD FALLEN OVERBOARD. This is why his parents are upset about that incident.
His life could have been saved since he fell on top of a life-boat and there is a photo of his body imprint of his blood on the life-boat.

It was a simple accident that could have been solved if the wife had reported it right away. Instead she chose not to tell anybody about it because she could have been the one who pushed him over-board.

The truth can only come out when the wife tells the truth of what really happened. She was present at the time he fell over-board. All we have is our own interpretation of what happened and that is not proof.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 07:59 PM
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I personally think the parents need to be able to put blame somewhere in order to move on. The idea of their son just going overboard is just too easy for them to except. This is their child and thereís nothing worse to a parent then losing a child. Iím sure these parents will go to their grave believing foul play was involved. Hopefully they will find some kind of peace during their lifetime.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old October 1st, 2010, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LucyR. View Post
I think that the honeymoon couple argued and he fell over-board.
Where is the evidence for that scenario?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old October 1st, 2010, 09:42 PM
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We may never know what happend.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 10:43 PM
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WOW This thread brought back memories.

I did not realize it was an old one, and thought she was getting married again, and wondered what she did with Hubby #2

My heart still breaks for the parents, I still think Paul is the greatest, and I still love to read anything Todd writes.

What happened to Delft?
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