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  #91 (permalink)  
Old September 1st, 2006, 05:59 PM
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Old September 2nd, 2006, 10:56 AM
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Floridanamaw,

Unfortunately that is the way of our society these days, and that is called progress. AAAH, to go back to the Little House on the Praire days, or on Walton Mountain, where it didn't matter what you wore. You were treated with respect because you were a person, not because of what you had on. There was a man who wore overalls, and drove a old beat up truck everyday. Care to guess you he was...Sam Walton...yes the Wal-mart guy. I'll save my first impressions for after I have talked to someone, then form my opinion about them. That's the way it should be

It may be unfortuate, but the fact that dress and grooming form first impressoins is nothing new. Ever hear the real account of the founding of Stanford University? The "official" history on the univerity's website tactflly sates that the Leland Sanford "consulted" with the President of Harvard College, but here's the true story....

A lady in a faded gingham dress and her husband, dressed in a homespun threadbare suit, stepped off the train in Boston and walked timidly without an appointment into the Harvard University President's outer office. The secretary could tell in a moment that such backwoods, country hicks had no business at Harvard and probably didn't even deserve to be in Cambridge. She frowned. "We want to see the President," the man said softly.

"He'll be busy all day," the secretary snapped.

"We'll wait," the lady replied. For hours, the secretary ignored them, hoping that the couple would finally become discouraged and go away. They didn't and the secretary grew frustrated and finally decided to disturb the President, even though it was a chore she always regretted.

"Maybe if they just see you for a few minutes, they'll leave," she told him. He sighed in exasperation and nodded. Someone of his importance obviously didn't have the time to spend with them, but he detested gingham dresses and homespun suits cluttering up his outer office.

The President, stern-faced with dignity, strutted toward the couple. The lady told him, "We had a son who attended Harvard for one year. He loved Harvard. He was happy here. But about a year ago, he was accidentally killed. And my
husband and I would like to erect a memorial to him, somewhere on campus."

The President wasn't touched, he was shocked. "Madam," he said gruffly. "We can't put up a statue for every person who attended Harvard and died. If we did, this place would look like a cemetery."

"Oh, no," the lady explained quickly. "We don't want to erect a statue. We thought we would like to give a building to Harvard."
The president rolled his eyes. He glanced at the gingham dress and homespun suit, then exclaimed, "A building! Do you have any earthly idea how much a building costs? We have over seven and a half million dollars in the physical plant at Harvard."
For a moment the lady was silent. The president was pleased. He could get rid of them now. And the lady turned to her husband and said quietly, "Is that all it costs to start a university? Why don't we just start our own?" Her husband nodded.

The President's face wilted in confusion and bewilderment. And Mr. and Mrs. Leland Stanford walked away, traveling to Palo Alto, California where they established the university that bears their name, a memorial to a son that Harvard no longer cared about.


Although first impressions are often very wrong, the fact that people act based upon those impressions is nothing new.

Norm.
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Old September 2nd, 2006, 12:04 PM
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First impressions have an impact, but the question is what kind of impact. Someone who dresses to the nines may or may not have anything interesting to say. Same is true at the extreme opposite end.

Also, impressions count in the written word, too. Someone whose writing is consistently sloppy and loaded with poor spelling and grammar, and who never bothers to correct typo's is someone whose etiquette advice I will take with a large grain of salt.

Lisa, While I agree with you in theory about just following the cruise guidelines, I think the real problem is that a lot of people don't know how to interpret them. Our society rarely uses written dress codes and folks are accustomed to adapting to unofficial ones. That works for work, etc., but makes it harder to adjust to cruise attire. While our discussions sometimes get heated, I also think that it is okay to let newbies know that there are various interpretations. Yes, this horse has been beaten to death, but he was taken to a really good taxidermist and probably will last a long time.

I'm off to go pack, including formal wear!
Marty
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Old September 2nd, 2006, 11:55 PM
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Marty,

Also, impressions count in the written word, too. Someone whose writing is consistently sloppy and loaded with poor spelling and grammar, and who never bothers to correct typo's is someone whose etiquette advice I will take with a large grain of salt.

A very good point!

While I agree with you in theory about just following the cruise guidelines, I think the real problem is that a lot of people don't know how to interpret them. Our society rarely uses written dress codes and folks are accustomed to adapting to unofficial ones. That works for work, etc., but makes it harder to adjust to cruise attire. While our discussions sometimes get heated, I also think that it is okay to let newbies know that there are various interpretations.

I agree with your point about interpretation to a degree, though the greater truth is that (1) public schools should teach social etiquette, but do not (and I really wonder what percentage of teachers would not be capable of doing so...), and (2) our society has gotten so casual that many people really do not go to "formal" and "semiformal" events. The result is many variations of "casual" ("business casual," "resort casual," "country club casual," etc.) and widespread igorance of anything beyond.

That said, most cruise lines publish clear explanatons of their dress standards in their pre-cruise literature, in the daily bulletin for the first day of each cruise, and on their web sites. This information should resolve any confusion or uncertainty that a prospective passenger may have over the meaning of a term such as "formal" or "smart casual."

That said, we all should be aware that all of the major cruise lines have modified the traditional terminology for standards of dress, for example by admitting (at least) dark business suits on "formal" evenings, and that the modifications are more extensive on some lines than on others. Thus, it is impertive to read the pre-cruise literature to find out what modifications will be in effect on the line on which one is actually cruising.

Norm.
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Old September 3rd, 2006, 06:31 AM
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I am going on a cruise this friday. I am going to pack my repectful and dignified pretty dresses, and if people still don't approve of my choise of dress, i really don't care one iotta. I am going on that ship for a much needed vacation and to have fun........ and to PARTAY, YAHOOOOO.
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Old September 3rd, 2006, 12:11 PM
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Norm,
You left out my all-time favorite "casual chic". Yep, we've gone way overboard, so to speak, in refining the definition of casual. But, schools have enough trouble teaching basics. I don't even know of a single private school that offers something like social etiquette. Actually, I learned at home, which is really where a lot of things should be taught. But often aren't. Can't change it.
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Old September 3rd, 2006, 06:21 PM
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Marty,

You left out my all-time favorite "casual chic". Yep, we've gone way overboard, so to speak, in refining the definition of casual.

Yes, and I probably left out a bunch more, too. I did not intend to make a complete list of all the variations of "casual" that exist today.

But, schools have enough trouble teaching basics. I don't even know of a single private school that offers something like social etiquette.

When I was in elementary school, the teachers did insist on some basics. For example, boys were expected to remove their hats or hoods as they entered the building and girls were expected to do so when they hung up their coats. We were taught to show respect for adults by addressing the
m formally (Mr. Smith, Miss Jones, Mrs. Green, Dr. Grey, etc.). We were expected to use polite vocabulary, free of "four letter words," even when talking to other students. We were expected to say "please" when asking for something and "thank you" when we got it. On the day after a field trip, each student wrote a "thank you" note to the parent volunteers who came as chaperones -- which the teacher reviewed and graded for English before we recopied them, with the teacher's edits, or rewrote completely for the teacher to review again if they were unacceptable, for mailing. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

In upper grades, where students change classes and have "study hall" when they don't have class, integration of a class in social etiquette actually would be quite easy. Most schools have classes in physical education that meet every other day. Thus, a class in social etiquette could meet during the same time period on one of the other days.

Actually, I learned at home, which is really where a lot of things should be taught. But often aren't. Can't change it.

That certainly would be the ideal, but parents can't teach what they never learned.

Norm.
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Old September 5th, 2006, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev22:17

[Jeans] are comfortable and durable.

Well, I'll give you the "durable" part -- which is why they are traditinally worn for farming, construction, and other "dirty" work, and as "play clothes" for children.

Personally, I have NEVER found jeans to be comfortable. Every pair of jeans that I have owned was uncomfortably stiff when it was new enough to look decent, and so faded that I did not want to be seen in it by the time it got "broken in" enough to lose its stiffness. When travelling or hanging out, I'll choose slacks (Dockers, Haggar, etc.) over jeans any time. Even for dirty work, I prefer khaki or "chino" work pants.
OK, so you don't like to wear them, and that means what to people who do? Sorry, but times do change along with what people like to wear. That you don't wear them because of their "fit2 or negative conotations from your past really mean nothing to those who choose to wear them as the standard casual attire.

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Peter
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Old September 5th, 2006, 09:25 PM
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Peter,

OK, so you don't like to wear them, and that means what to people who do? Sorry, but times do change along with what people like to wear. That you don't wear them because of their "fit2 or negative conotations from your past really mean nothing to those who choose to wear them as the standard casual attire.

Nor did I say that it did. Nonetheless, there are places where jeans are NOT acceptable as "casual" attire -- including the main dining rooms, specialty restuarnats, and theaters of most cruise ships. Note that many "country clubs" (that is, club houses at golf courses) also do not allow jeans -- hence the term "country club casual"....

Norm.
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Old September 6th, 2006, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev22:17
Peter,

OK, so you don't like to wear them, and that means what to people who do? Sorry, but times do change along with what people like to wear. That you don't wear them because of their "fit2 or negative conotations from your past really mean nothing to those who choose to wear them as the standard casual attire.

Nor did I say that it did. Nonetheless, there are places where jeans are NOT acceptable as "casual" attire -- including the main dining rooms, specialty restuarnats, and theaters of most cruise ships. Note that many "country clubs" (that is, club houses at golf courses) also do not allow jeans -- hence the term "country club casual"....

Norm.
That may be true, but the only ones that would be allowed to enforce that code would be the cruise lines themselves, our opinions, for that is what they are, are meaningless. Stating that jeans are "NOT" acceptable is your own opinion, and as you have demonstrated, you don't like them or wear them. Society changes, what you consider NOT casual is to others their mainstay.

If they choose to not enforce a dress code, that is their business. If it remains unenforced, then the dress code itself becomes meaningless, which to a great extent is true.

Every cruise that I have been on over the last 20 odd years has had people dressed as they wished. People are becoming more disillusioned with lugging items of clothing they prefer not to wear, find uncomfortable, etc simply because of a dress code that is not enforced.

People choose to wear what they wish. the only arbiter in the matter is the cruise lines, and they have chosen to disregard it themselves. While there may be anecdotal evidence that someone somewhere once heard about someone that was kicked out of the dining room for their dress, it is not the standard practice.

Cheers,
Peter
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Old September 6th, 2006, 10:03 PM
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Peter,

That may be true, but the only ones that would be allowed to enforce that code would be the cruise lines themselves, our opinions, for that is what they are, are meaningless. Stating that jeans are "NOT" acceptable is your own opinion, and as you have demonstrated, you don't like them or wear them. Society changes, what you consider NOT casual is to others their mainstay.

If they choose to not enforce a dress code, that is their business. If it remains unenforced, then the dress code itself becomes meaningless, which to a great extent is true.


Yes, it's certainly true that ANY rule is meaningless without enforcement. Traditional social etiquette dictates that dress in the manner prescribed by the host, making enforcement unnecessary. Unfortunately, we live in an age where many ignorant boors are hell-bent on pushing the limit, and thus make enforcement necessary. Those who voluntarily book a cruise on a particular line and then fail to comply with published dress codes show themselves to be in the latter category by their own actions. There are plenty of other options out there.

That said, I would raise three important points.

>> 1. When I book a cruise, I am purchasing a product based upon the cruise line's representation thereof. If the cruise line represents that it maintains a certain ambiance, part of which is set by certain standards of dress, I have a right to expect the cruise line to provide that ambiance. Since dress is part of what sets the ambiance of an event, the obligation to provide the advertised ambiance necessarily includes an obligation to enforce the corresponding standards of dress.

>> 2. When I'm on vacation, I really don't want to be around a bunch of arrogant imbeciles who are hell-bent on doing their own thing with no regard for anybody else. That's not exactly condusive to relaxation.

>> 3. Human nature is such that failure to enforce rules invariably gives rise to a general attitude that the rules don't matter because nobody will ever enforce them anyway. Such attitudes can be disasterous in a causualty situation. Consider, for example, the passengers who decide NOT to get their life jackets and go to their muster stations when the ship's officers sound the general emergency alarm. Rather, they hang out on deck where they are in the way of fire parties, medical personnel trying to treat injured passengers, or other emergency responders. Such situations can result in unnecessary death or injury to others.

The sea can be savagely unforgiving of stupidity. I, for one, do NOT want to go to sea with anybody who can't follow a few simple rules and I most assuedly do NOT want such individuals aboard the vessels of any of the cruise lines in which I happen to own stock, where they pose a constant danger to the vessel and all aboard.

I have not yet resorted to action under consumer protection laws, but failure to enforce dress codes always draws a sure-fire comment on my cruise evaluations.

Every cruise that I have been on over the last 20 odd years has had people dressed as they wished. People are becoming more disillusioned with lugging items of clothing they prefer not to wear, find uncomfortable, etc simply because of a dress code that is not enforced.

People choose to wear what they wish. the only arbiter in the matter is the cruise lines, and they have chosen to disregard it themselves. While there may be anecdotal evidence that someone somewhere once heard about someone that was kicked out of the dining room for their dress, it is not the standard practice.


Some cruise lines are now enforcing their dress codes pretty strictly because their passengers are demanding it.

Norm.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old September 7th, 2006, 09:32 AM
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>> 1. When I book a cruise, I am purchasing a product based upon the cruise line's representation thereof. If the cruise line represents that it maintains a certain ambiance, part of which is set by certain standards of dress, I have a right to expect the cruise line to provide that ambiance. Since dress is part of what sets the ambiance of an event, the obligation to provide the advertised ambiance necessarily includes an obligation to enforce the corresponding standards of dress.

So at this point I am sure you have initiated legal proceedings since they do not enforce this code. How many suits have you won so far?

>> 2. When I'm on vacation, I really don't want to be around a bunch of arrogant imbeciles who are hell-bent on doing their own thing with no regard for anybody else. That's not exactly condusive to relaxation.

When I am on a vacation I am surrounded by all manner of people from all walks of life, and so far haven't been affected, or for that matter offended by any of them while they have been "doing their own thing". I hope that my life doesn't get to the point where someones clothing influences my life.

>> 3. Human nature is such that failure to enforce rules invariably gives rise to a general attitude that the rules don't matter because nobody will ever enforce them anyway. Such attitudes can be disasterous in a causualty situation. Consider, for example, the passengers who decide NOT to get their life jackets and go to their muster stations when the ship's officers sound the general emergency alarm. Rather, they hang out on deck where they are in the way of fire parties, medical personnel trying to treat injured passengers, or other emergency responders. Such situations can result in unnecessary death or injury to others.

Hmm, are you trying to compare the safety of ones life to wearing jeans in the dining room? I don't think you will get too many people to agree with you on this point, kind of a big stretch isn't it?

The sea can be savagely unforgiving of stupidity. I, for one, do NOT want to go to sea with anybody who can't follow a few simple rules and I most assuedly do NOT want such individuals aboard the vessels of any of the cruise lines in which I happen to own stock, where they pose a constant danger to the vessel and all aboard.

I've heard that the list on the Crown Princess was caused by someone wearing jeans to the dining room, everyone was so aghast they rushed to one side of the ship to avoid contact with such low-life boors. But seriously, the dangers of being at sea, and clothing, another stretch I see. In any event as a stockholder I want to see all of the people who want to sail sign up, I don't really see their jeans as a "constant danger to the vessel and all aboard"

I have not yet resorted to action under consumer protection laws, but failure to enforce dress codes always draws a sure-fire comment on my cruise evaluations.

I would certainly like to see that one being described in the court journal.

But your honor, I couldn't have a good time, cuz, sniff sniff <- (dramatic effect) they were wearing jeans in the dining room, and they said we would all look like Fred Astaire and Ginger Rodgers.

Do you actually think anyone would take you seriously and that you would get anywhere with that? Since each cruise has more and more people not dressing to your standards, I see that your constant comments have made a very large impression on the cruise lines. There have been far more serious complaints which cruise lines regularly ignore, I'm sure this would have the same result.

Some cruise lines are now enforcing their dress codes pretty strictly because their passengers are demanding it.

Hmm, I don't know where you have been cruising the last few years, but none of the mass-market lines I know of enforce them, Princess, Celebrity, Costa, Carnival, HAL, RCCL, not even Cunard.

In any event we will just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure in the next few years this will become a moot point as written dress code suggestions are eliminated due to lack of interest and societal changes.

Cheers,
Peter
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old September 7th, 2006, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosetattoo
I don't understand why people wear jeans anywhere, never mind on a cruise ship. It definitely reflects how they were brought up and in what part of the country. I have never owned a pair of jeans and seemed to have lived my entire life to this point free of "jean trauma". My parents would never allow their children to wear clothes that a farmer or auto mechanic would wear. Jeans are touted as haute couture by the manufacturers and they have brainwashed a good majority of the population into investing huge amounts of money in their products. Lisa is right, the cruise lines set the rules for proper attire and they should be enforced. I sailed last month on the Glory and the Maitre D turned away passengers who were not dressed properly and made an announcement over the PA system.
Well rose I sure hope on the next cruise this ex-farmer now professionally employed college educated redneck is sitting at your table.

We'll have a very interesting time.

Don’t try to weasel out of your pompous indignant post by mincing words.

BTW I don’t wear jeans to the dining room and Lisa K hit the nail on the head on the other page. The dining room isnt Applebees. Put on some dockers and a polo at least. If not hit the buffet up top side.

Russell
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Old September 7th, 2006, 11:20 AM
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These last 2 post have been the best of this whole thread. After reading the post from "the rev" I have been trying to come back with a post, but Peter said it perfect, I couldn't beat this one if I tried, and Russell had a great one too. I, too, hope I don't get any of these pompous people at my table. I had rather have a table full of farmers (ex or still working the land) (wearing a tux or bib overall) than any of these arrogant people. Peter and Russell are welcome at my table anytime. Have a great day.
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old September 7th, 2006, 11:28 AM
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Astanding applause to russell. I welcome redneck farmer types at my table anytime. They are down to earth friendly people. I hate snobs with their noses so far in the air.
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Old September 7th, 2006, 12:30 PM
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I have also really enjoyed the last few posts. Life is much too short to get disturbed by the clothing that other cruisers wear. I know that I could not enjoy myself if I were constantly judging others by their apparel. It might cause a big lump in my stomach where more food should be.

I posted before that one of the finest gentleman that I ever met on a cruise was a ranch and construction company owner from here in Texas who wore jeans to the dining room every evening and reluctantly wore a denim jacket and tie on formal nights. If that makes me a low class redneck, I am proud of the fact.

God gave us a fig leaf to wear. Beyond that, anything elaborate that we don is a tribute to vanity.

Let's get together and organize a tux-haters group cruise.

Live and let live and you will live longer.
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Old September 7th, 2006, 12:39 PM
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PeterV:

Yes indeed...social changes...we do see that.

What can be forgotten, is that part of the fabric of society is made up of these small gestures.....manners, customs, courtesies, social graces, traditions. These are some of the things we pass on to our children..or hope to.

We live in such a face paced society, we become used to everything flashing in front of us quickly, including change. We may not stop to think if the change is really good or even consider it's final impact on us or on our children.

In our rush for everything to be easy, quick, and at our personal convenience, we slowly begin cutting these threads that hold society together. There is a failure to see the BIG picture because at first glance they are such little things.

Yes...we do see society changing...always taking the easy way...and at first you'll love it! Sorta like jumping off a tall building...and in the free fall thinking..."hey, this isn't bad...the freedoms great!"...Sure, until you hit reality or pardon the pun...it hits you! Then you have to contend with everything else that comes with it...and THAT my friends will not be as much fun!

I'm afraid you're right and I'm truly sorry for it...the cruise lines are fighting a losing battle...but the biggest loser will be US and our children.
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Old September 7th, 2006, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fieldmouse
PeterV:

Yes indeed...social changes...we do see that.

What can be forgotten, is that part of the fabric of society is made up of these small gestures.....manners, customs, courtesies, social graces, traditions. These are some of the things we pass on to our children..or hope to.

We live in such a face paced society, we become used to everything flashing in front of us quickly, including change. We may not stop to think if the change is really good or even consider it's final impact on us or on our children.

In our rush for everything to be easy, quick, and at our personal convenience, we slowly begin cutting these threads that hold society together. There is a failure to see the BIG picture because at first glance they are such little things.

Yes...we do see society changing...always taking the easy way...and at first you'll love it! Sorta like jumping off a tall building...and in the free fall thinking..."hey, this isn't bad...the freedoms great!"...Sure, until you hit reality or pardon the pun...it hits you! Then you have to contend with everything else that comes with it...and THAT my friends will not be as much fun!

I'm afraid you're right and I'm truly sorry for it...the cruise lines are fighting a losing battle...but the biggest loser will be US and our children.
Now wearing jeans is going to be the downfall of civilisation as we know it. Sorry, but I disagree strongly.

Manners are how we TREAT others, not by donning a set of clothing.

Custom, that is another word for inertia. Doesn't make it right of wrong, it is as it is, and they have a tendency to change.

Courtesies, yes, holding open a door for others, giving up a seat for those less capable of standing, holding a lift, allowing others off before barging on. Those are courtesies. Wearing a jacket and tie is pretty immaterial to those. along with wearing a ball cap at the table, who cares, and why would it bother you?

All of these are good points, however none of them relate to clothing. Clothing is the material chosen to wrap around ones body. It has nothing what so ever to do with how others are treated. If someone wishes to take offense at how others chose to clothe themselves, sorry but the problem is theirs.

This is not directed at you personally but in general, on a ship or in a city, you are just one face in the thousands around us, you are not my friends, family or acquaintances. I will probably never speak with you or even see you again, why should I care what your opinion is of me? However I would still hold the door for you, or the lift, but if you made a comment on my manner of attire, I would probably ask you what concern is it of yours and to tell you to mind your own business.

Cheers,
Peter
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Old September 7th, 2006, 02:45 PM
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PeterV,

So at this point I am sure you have initiated legal proceedings since they do not enforce this code. How many suits have you won so far?

As I stated in my earlier post, I have not resorted to legal procedings. Celebrtiy, in particular, seems to be doing a reasonable job of enforcing publihsed dress codes without them.

BTW, you might want to take a look at Kuki's recent survey thread on the Royal Caribbean International board about enforcement of dress codes. The general consensus of that thread was that cruise lines should enforce whatever dress codes they publish.

When I am on a vacation I am surrounded by all manner of people from all walks of life, and so far haven't been affected, or for that matter offended by any of them while they have been "doing their own thing". I hope that my life doesn't get to the point where someones clothing influences my life.

I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with a cruise line stating that "bluejeans are acceptable throughout the ship on casual evenings" or whith passenges who wear bluejeans in the dinign room on a such line. Rather, I take issue only with (1) passengers who ignore -- or, worse yet, defy -- the published standards of dress, whatever they are, and (2) cruise lines that fail to enforce the published standards of dress. Do you comprehend the difference?

Hmm, are you trying to compare the safety of ones life to wearing jeans in the dining room? I don't think you will get too many people to agree with you on this point, kind of a big stretch isn't it?

The issue is NOT what one actually wears. The issue is one's attitude toward legitimate authority.

I would certainly like to see that one being described in the court journal.

The judgement probably would be very simple -- something like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Court
The cruise line ldearly represented that the cruise in question would have three (3) 'formal' evenings. The evenings in fact were not 'formal' because the cruise line materially failed to enforce the stated standards of formal dress, as demonstrated by photographs showing participation of passengers dressed in clothing that is not within the stated standard of 'formal' attire. The court awards a full refund of the cruise fare plus other expenses including air fare, port charges, lodging en route, and other expenses incurred on the trip to the passenger. The court als awards legal fees and court costs to the passenger.
Of course, the court probably would promote the case to class action on behalf of all passengers who wore the prescribed attire for the "formal" evenings, if petitioned to do so. The precedent might bring significant changes to dress codes on some lines, but it would also bring consistent enforcement of the revised dress codes!

Do you actually think anyone would take you seriously and that you would get anywhere with that?

Yes. Legally, it's a much more letigimate case than the claim against McDonald's by the woman who spilled hot coffee all over her own lap through her own negligence. In fact, the law actually would be on the side of the plaintiff(s) in such a case.

I don't know where you have been cruising the last few years, but none of the mass-market lines I know of enforce them, Princess, Celebrity, Costa, Carnival, HAL, RCCL, not even Cunard.

Then you apparently have not been on Celebrity recently, because I have noticed much stricter enforcement on Celebrity over the past year.

Norm.
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Old September 7th, 2006, 03:31 PM
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Well written reply Peter...

But I was not writing just about the narrow focus of wearing Jeans.

I AM commenting on the general lack of respect for custom, traditions, etc. in the cruise passenger.

Of course, good manners dictate that a person not comment verbally on another's clothing...

But also, good manners and respect dictate that a cruise passenger while being a guest in another country, respect that countries customs or traditions ...even when it comes to style of dress, and even though they may never see those people again...ever.

Good manners are how you treat people....and I treat people with respect...by SHOWING respect for their traditions or customs, even if I find them temporarily uncomfortable. On a cruise...if it is the custom to dress a certain way...then I SHOW good manners by respecting that tradition.

Because of the ease of travel and communications...we now live in a global village...and what we, as individuals do, does make a difference.

Yes, you're right...wearing Jeans will not bring down 'civilisation as we know it'...but we should be concerned about the changing 'attitudes' toward respect, common courtesies and manners. These on a small scale are reflected in the cruise passenger of today.
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Old September 7th, 2006, 05:19 PM
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Rather, I take issue only with (1) passengers who ignore -- or, worse yet, defy -- the published standards of dress, whatever they are, and (2) cruise lines that fail to enforce the published standards of dress. Do you comprehend the difference?

You are of course entitled to your opinion, just as the people who do not dress are entitled to theirs. However, the real point is that you have decided to take this as a personal affront instead of accepting it as a change in societal behaviour. It is a situation that you will never change, you just upset yourself over trivial matters. As I stated before, to most people the others around them are simply faces in the crowd and mean nothing to them. Sad fact, but true none the less.

The issue is NOT what one actually wears. The issue is one's attitude toward legitimate authority.

Once again you take this to extremes, no one is questioning authority, we are talking about the ignoring of a suggested dress for eating dinner. Nothing more, nothing less. People violate inconsequential laws daily, for example speeding, with limited consequences.

Of course, the court probably would promote the case to class action on behalf of all passengers who wore the prescribed attire for the "formal" evenings, if petitioned to do so. The precedent might bring significant changes to dress codes on some lines, but it would also bring consistent enforcement of the revised dress codes!

Yes. Legally, it's a much more letigimate case than the claim against McDonald's by the woman who spilled hot coffee all over her own lap through her own negligence. In fact, the law actually would be on the side of the plaintiff(s) in such a case.


Please let me know when you are going to file this consumer protection complaint, I can always do with a good chuckle. As to the McDonalds coffee case, there are a lot of misconception as to the issues that were involved. I would suggest you read up about it before using it as an example.

Then you apparently have not been on Celebrity recently, because I have noticed much stricter enforcement on Celebrity over the past year.

And just as many people wearing jeans, no jacket and tie on semi-casual-informal nights.

As I said before we both must just agree to disagree.

Cheers,
Peter
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Old September 7th, 2006, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fieldmouse
Well written reply Peter...

But I was not writing just about the narrow focus of wearing Jeans.

I AM commenting on the general lack of respect for custom, traditions, etc. in the cruise passenger.

Of course, good manners dictate that a person not comment verbally on another's clothing...

But also, good manners and respect dictate that a cruise passenger while being a guest in another country, respect that countries customs or traditions ...even when it comes to style of dress, and even though they may never see those people again...ever.

Good manners are how you treat people....and I treat people with respect...by SHOWING respect for their traditions or customs, even if I find them temporarily uncomfortable. On a cruise...if it is the custom to dress a certain way...then I SHOW good manners by respecting that tradition.

Because of the ease of travel and communications...we now live in a global village...and what we, as individuals do, does make a difference.

Yes, you're right...wearing Jeans will not bring down 'civilisation as we know it'...but we should be concerned about the changing 'attitudes' toward respect, common courtesies and manners. These on a small scale are reflected in the cruise passenger of today.
But this whole matter deals with changes in society. When the changes occur there are those that lament "The Good Old Days", because they were comfortable with them and knew how to deal with them.

I simply believe that the changes that are in place reveal that manners are not about what you wear but how you treat others. I have met complete and utterly contemptable people dressed in tuxes, they may have been nicely dressed, but they were not nice people, and very ill-mannered.

So, on that note, I would have to say I would much prefer to judge people by who they are than what they wear. What they wear simply covers their bodies, they are on a cruise because that is what they enjoy doing.

Cheers,
Peter
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Old September 7th, 2006, 07:27 PM
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Russell, your name calling post doesn't even deserve a response. Shame on you.
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Old September 7th, 2006, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosetattoo
Russell, your name calling post doesn't even deserve a response. Shame on you.
Please show me where I called you a name.

Quote:
Russell said
Well rose I sure hope on the next cruise this ex-farmer now professionally employed college educated redneck is sitting at your table.

We'll have a very interesting time.

Don’t try to weasel out of your pompous indignant post by mincing words.

BTW I don’t wear jeans to the dining room and Lisa K hit the nail on the head on the other page. The dining room isnt Applebees. Put on some dockers and a polo at least. If not hit the buffet up top side.

Russell
I said your post was pompous and called you on trying to brush off what you said.

Shame on me? Shame on you for posting such blatantly offensive remarks.

Quote:
rosetat said
I don't understand why people wear jeans anywhere, never mind on a cruise ship. It definitely reflects how they were brought up and in what part of the country.......My parents would never allow their children to wear clothes that a farmer or auto mechanic would wear.
Your own words speak more about you than I can ever type here. No one needs a cryptographer.

R
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Old September 7th, 2006, 09:13 PM
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Come on guys...play nice
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Old September 7th, 2006, 10:03 PM
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OK Im done with it.

I dont wear jeans in the dining room and think that if I have to suck it up and dress up just to fill my tummy then others should share in the formality.

Its the wingman thing to do.

R
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Old September 7th, 2006, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
rosetat said
I don't understand why people wear jeans anywhere, never mind on a cruise ship. It definitely reflects how they were brought up and in what part of the country.......My parents would never allow their children to wear clothes that a farmer or auto mechanic would wear.

This remark by Rose is what upset me the most. I don't have a problem with obeying the dress code. What I have a problem with are the people that seem to think that they are so much better than you are because you desire to wear jeans. I have also met people that were dressed to the nines that were the rudest most arrogent people I have ever met.

The real issue here is that no matter how a person is dressed it is very unfair to judge them until you've had a chance to talk to them. It doesn't matter if they have on overalls, jeans, suits or tuxes or if they are dripping in gold or diamonds, or if they have no jewelry on at all. If somebody looks down on me because I don't dress as they wish everyone would, then I have no use for those type of people. Give me a good ole redneck, farmer, mechanic or lowly worker any day of the week.

I was really looking forward to this cruise, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe I won't "fit it" with the rest of the cruise people. I don't plan on wearing my jeans, so I won't offend anyone. If I see someone in jeans I sure won't judge them because of that. Maybe I should take my money to Vegas where everyone is welcome.
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Old September 7th, 2006, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floridanamaw
Quote:
I was really looking forward to this cruise, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe I won't "fit it" with the rest of the cruise people. I don't plan on wearing my jeans, so I won't offend anyone. If I see someone in jeans I sure won't judge them because of that. Maybe I should take my money to Vegas where everyone is welcome.
Its bought and paid for. Go have fun. Ive never had a problem and never seen or heard of a problem with anyone. Dont read too much into this whole exchange.

Back when I started playing golf I thought I would go out and everyone would be playing like on TV. After seeing just about everyone else was a hacker I felt better about the whole thing.

R
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Old September 8th, 2006, 01:42 AM
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Fieldmouse

But I was not writing just about the narrow focus of wearing Jeans.

I AM commenting on the general lack of respect for custom, traditions, etc. in the cruise passenger.

Of course, good manners dictate that a person not comment verbally on another's clothing...

But also, good manners and respect dictate that a cruise passenger while being a guest in another country, respect that countries customs or traditions ...even when it comes to style of dress, and even though they may never see those people again...ever.


Right on!

And good manners also dictate that one dress according to the standard prescribed by the host(ess) when attending a social function. In the case of an evening on a cruise ship, the captain is the host. Thus, those who fail to conform to the published standard of dress demonstrate that they are not well-mannered by their very action.

Yes, you're right...wearing Jeans will not bring down 'civilisation as we know it'...but we should be concerned about the changing 'attitudes' toward respect, common courtesies and manners. These on a small scale are reflected in the cruise passenger of today.

Sure, wearing jeans might not bring down civilization, but wearng jeans when one's host(ess) has explicitly stated no jeans can only demonstrate either (1) abject ignorance of social custom or (2) contemptuous defiance of one's host(ess). Both attitudes are utterly despicable, and intolerable in civil society.

Norm.
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Old September 8th, 2006, 01:54 AM
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Peter,

You are of course entitled to your opinion, just as the people who do not dress are entitled to theirs. However, the real point is that you have decided to take this as a personal affront instead of accepting it as a change in societal behaviour.

If you read a manual on social etiquette, you will discover that not conforming to the requested standard of dress is a personal affront both to both the host(ess), which is the master of the vessel on a cruise ship, and the other guests. That's not my opinion; that's the norms of our society -- whether you like them or not.

Once again you take this to extremes, no one is questioning authority, we are talking about the ignoring of a suggested dress for eating dinner. Nothing more, nothing less. People violate inconsequential laws daily, for example speeding, with limited consequences.

Aha. I think that I see the root of your misconception. In this context, the term "suggested" carries an expectation -- and thus an obligation -- of conformance. In many organizations, "recommendations" flow up the chain of command while "suggestions" flow down the chain of command, and this context is no exception. The "suggestion" is in fact a polite phrasing of a direct order, with obedience expected.

But for the clueless among us, at least one cruise line has changed the wording of its dress codes. Celebrity Cruises now states that the published dress code is "required" on the respective evenings. That should remove what you, and others, have miscontrued to mean that there was a choice.

And just as many people wearing jeans, no jacket and tie on semi-casual-informal nights.

On my recent cruises, on Celebrity, the Maitre d' and the head waiters have turned away passengers who came to the dining room in jeans.

Norm.
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