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Old August 28th, 2013, 05:32 AM
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Default How do warmongers and peaceniks reconcile death of civilians with cruise missiles in

How do warmongers and peaceniks reconcile death of civilians with cruise missiles in Syria?

Western powers could attack within days to punish President Bashar Assad for a poison gas attack last week that killed hundreds of civilians, envoys from the United States and its allies have told rebels fighting for his overthrow, according to sources who were present.

"The big fear is that they'll make the same mistakes they made in Libya and Iraq. They'll hit civilian targets, and then they'll cry that it was by mistake, but we'll get killed in the thousands," said Ziyad, a man in his fifties.

I hope that Obama doesn't order an attack on Syria.
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Old August 28th, 2013, 09:51 AM
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I'm afraid he will.

He boxed himself in with his ill-advised "red line" comments. Plus the "I've never met a war I didn't like" crowd in Congress, led by John McCain and funded by the arms merchants, is continuing the pressure on him to shoot, along with Israel of course.

And, morally, a measured reaction is probably justified. The problem is that it's always the US that is forced to do the shooting. The consequences, as you say, are the people in the Arab street who will continue to be outraged by the inevitable "collateral damage" which will be caused by Assad's setting up refugee camps next to military targets. I haven't seen news that he's done this yet, just conjecturing. . .

Care to bet against it?
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Old August 28th, 2013, 11:01 AM
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I have a really hard time thinking he will do anything. He knows that if things go wrong, he will have to deal with it later, and if this president does anything he thinks about the way he will be thought of, in the future.

If he does anything, it will probably be the light strikes that Bill Clinton ordered.

He has now realized what the past speeches will do, to bite you in the rear. If he is not careful, he will end up doing what Bush did.

The gas attacks are horrible, no matter who is doing it, but if the past is true, it will not effect his decision, because when there were gas attacks in Iraq, he condemned the president for doing something about it.

I agree AR, the red line was a big mistake, which I'll bet he regrets.
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Old August 28th, 2013, 05:26 PM
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And, morally, a measured reaction is probably justified. The problem is that it's always the US that is forced to do the shooting. The consequences, as you say, are the people in the Arab street who will continue to be outraged by the inevitable "collateral damage" . . .
There should not be any "collateral damage" in a measured reaction. Cruise missiles are programmed precisely to specific coordinates .... military and government targets.
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Old August 28th, 2013, 11:53 PM
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There should not be any "collateral damage" in a measured reaction. Cruise missiles are programmed precisely to specific coordinates .... military and government targets.
Right. There "should" not be collateral damage, but there usually is. Especially when you set up living quarters right next to military runways.

And even if there isn't any actual collateral damage, it's easy for the likes of Assad to invent some. Most of the world won't believe it, but the various militant groups will, and that's all that matters in terms of fomenting more hatred for us.

I'm just sayin'.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 09:20 AM
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I agree AR. It is not always easy.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 09:53 AM
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Yes. remember Kadafis family member/s were wiped out by Reagan missiles. The siting of civilians near targets is also a possibility. and then the other possiblity is a missile malfunction or a Snowden type innocent people being videotaped as they are wiped out.
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Old August 31st, 2013, 09:45 AM
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For those who bet against my prediction earlier in the string, there was news last night that Assad is moving gaggles of rebel prisoners to the obvious targets of our now almost certain attacks, while moving any of his supporters who might be in harm's way to heavily populated civilian areas and mosques.

Let me know if you're surprised.

Among the many mistakes the administration has made on this issue, one of the most glaring is telegraphing intentions for weeks (literally) before any action. Let's just say that the element of surprise has definitely been sacrificed.
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Old August 31st, 2013, 01:06 PM
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Good point AR. I honestly feel sorry for the president. He is stuck between two really hard places I don't think bad of him for it, because being president isn't perfect all the time. Sometimes things just don't work out.

I do hope that he doesn't worry about appearing any weaker, and just taking a step back.
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Old August 31st, 2013, 02:00 PM
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God Help us, Mr. President. Now hopefully, Congress can stop it.
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Old August 31st, 2013, 02:40 PM
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God Help us, Mr. President. Now hopefully, Congress can stop it.
Hi Luanne

I hope this finds you well.

Well the little people in the UK sent thousands of emails to our representatives in parliament and stopped DC in his tracks - he never saw it coming.

The Syrian situation is deplorable but we have to think the whole situation through.

Annie
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Old August 31st, 2013, 03:13 PM
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Hi Luanne

I hope this finds you well.

Well the little people in the UK sent thousands of emails to our representatives in parliament and stopped DC in his tracks - he never saw it coming.

The Syrian situation is deplorable but we have to think the whole situation through.

Annie

Hey Annie, Thank you and your people for this. It is indeed a shame what is happening to the people in the Middle East, but our President needed some time to think, and it looks like that is what he has.

We will always be grateful to our friends in the UK, for standing with us for the sake of human rights around the world. Please have patients with us, as we will once again stand strong against evil.

My best wishes to you and your family.

Luanne
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Old August 31st, 2013, 05:36 PM
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And give Cameron credit for accepting the decision without a vote. He said he "gets it," and it really appears that he does.

Of course, now we have another political football where the merits of honest debate will instantly give way to "if Obama wants it, I don't," especially in the House. There will be some interesting pushback in the Senate among the "shoot first, ask questions later" crowd led by McCain, who now, ironically, finds himself on the wrong side of this issue politically.

I'm also concerned that this issue will take an inordinate amount of time in Congress during the precious few days of the term that are left in between additional vacations, boondoggles, etc. Among their other deficiencies lately, our beloved legislature has proven itself unable to walk and chew gum at the same time--and sometimes they can't even walk. And there is so much left undone. I hope that they will be forced to come back before their scheduled start on Sept. 9.

Watching Kerry try to make the case the other day, I was one of many who thought of the impassioned plea made by Colin Powell before the UN all those years ago, when he managed to get a war started with a load of utter baloney. Worse, he said later that he thought the info was more than a little suspect. This will forever be a blotch on a good man's name, because if he didn't believe what he was told to say, his obvious option was to resign instantly as a matter of conscience. I can't believe he needed the money that badly (he could have instantly walked in to many multiples of it in the private sector). It's the damn "good soldier" mindset of the these military guys who just can't bring themselves to disobey a superior, even when the nation's honor, treasure, and the lives of its soldiers are at stake.

Meanwhile, George Tenet, who told Powell that the info was a "slam dunk," was rewarded with the National Medal of Freedom by Bush the younger, the nation's highest civilian honor. As somebody who knows a couple other people who have been given this honor--and who deserve it--I resent the fact that Tenet has been allowed to soil its meaning.

Anyway, more than anything else, it is surely the echoes of that disastrous speech by Powell that have brought us to where we are today. Which I guess proves that some good can come out of damn near anything. But think of how much better shape we'd be in now if the neocons had been honest and taken measured steps just after the turn of the century.
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Old August 31st, 2013, 07:17 PM
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I was thinking something different about Kerry's speech yesterday. It reminded me of the speeches he gave apposing the Nam war, only this time he appears to be for it. Both of the situations seem to have been the same, as far as human rights are concerned.

I am reading a book now about the last days of Kennedy, and can't believe how much it talks about Nam, and hearing almost the same thing on the news as I read.

No matter what anyone has said yesterday, or 6 years ago, we find ourselves in a pickle.

As I was typing to Annie, I heard on the tv that President Obama had left for the golf course, with the vice pres., and I found myself being relieved that at least there, we would be okay.

I hope something can be done this week, instead of next week. I worry the talks with Congress and the Pres.., will be the same week as the anniversary of 9/11.
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Old September 1st, 2013, 04:18 AM
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Among the many mistakes the administration has made on this issue, one of the most glaring is telegraphing intentions for weeks (literally) before any action. Let's just say that the element of surprise has definitely been sacrificed.


Unlike the Combined Fleet sailing south toward Hawaii unannounced in early December, 1941, the United States has a history of not launching surprise attacks.

And surprise attacks aren’t all that more effective than their announced counterparts. Just because the enemy knows what you’re going to do, doesn’t mean they’re going to be able to defeat it.

What the enemy can expect is that, when it comes, it will come at night, and all hell is going to break loose.…..

The United States Navy, by itself, is capable of obliterating the military assets of the Syrian government. The first wave will consist of a hundred or more Tomahawk cruise missiles. At first light, battle damage assessments will be made, after which, another hundred strikes will take place. And then another hundred, and another hundred, until the targets simply cease to exist.

United States Navy surface combat vessels deployed for action against the Syrian regime are: Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyers, USS Stout DDG 55, USS Mahan DDG 72, USS Barry DDG 52, USS Gravely DDG 107, USS Rampage DDG 61.

The United States Navy has not announced the name and hull number of the Ohio-class SSGN cruise missile submarine currently on station. Normally deployed to the Med is USS Florida SSGN 728. (As I know you're waiting with bated breath, I'll post her name and hull number as soon as it's announced.)

Arleigh Burke-class surface combat vessels carry a magazine of 90 Tomahawk cruise missiles, each, and are network connected to coordinate their target packages and rate of fire.

For example, United States Navy guided missile destroyer, USS Barry DDG 52 fired 55 Tomahawk cruise missiles against Libyan air defense targets, 19 March 2011, during Operation Odyssey Dawn, in a coordinated air defense suppression effort. 28 March 2011, USS Barry DDG 52 utilizing its Aegis phased array radar combat system directed a United States Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt II to attack and destroy 3 Libyan Coast Guard patrol boats attacking civilian merchant ships.

Of course, in a historical perspective, United States Navy antenna ships don’t pack much punch. Tomahawk cruise missiles, while relatively long-ranged, carry a 500-pound warhead, with no armor-piercing capability. That’s why it takes a hundred of these things to destroy enemy targets.

To impress upon the Assad regime the seriousness of gassing its own people, the United States Navy would be better served with a division of large-caliber surface combat vessels on a bombardment line off the coast of Syria.

A division of United States Navy Iowa-class large-caliber surface combat vessels, firing 9-gun salvos of 1900-pound HC projectiles, all day, everyday for a couple of weeks, sends a pretty clear message.

The cost/benefit analysis of large-caliber combat vessels is simple enough for a 2-year-old to make. The Assad regime possesses no weapons capable of reducing Iowa-classe’s combat effectiveness, and Iowa-class is capable of obliterating everything within range of its main battery rifles.

Large-caliber naval rifles are blunt-force instruments, and history has shown that the enemy responds favorably to a good pounding.
 
 
 
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Old September 1st, 2013, 06:45 AM
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Hey Annie, Thank you and your people for this. It is indeed a shame what is happening to the people in the Middle East, but our President needed some time to think, and it looks like that is what he has.

We will always be grateful to our friends in the UK, for standing with us for the sake of human rights around the world. Please have patients with us, as we will once again stand strong against evil.

My best wishes to you and your family.

Luanne
Hi Luanne

Thanks for your note.

Let us all hope everyone uses the time out productively.

I have a tile in my lounge with a JFK inscription (OK I know he was no saint):

One person can make a difference and everyone should try.

That is all the little people of the UK did - we found our voice. We care about what happens in Syria but we want everyone to think the consequences through. I admit I do not understand fully the historical background to the situation in Syria.

Best wishes to you and your family.

Annie
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Old September 1st, 2013, 04:25 PM
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Default Yes. I as well as Obama am war weary...

I am tired of seeing an administration claiming 1400 gassed Syrian dead and then an independent group said the true number was only 400. When did we hear about this last: Collin Powell at the UN claiming weapons of mass destruciton at the UN. I'm tired of hearing about Americans killed in Afghanistan. I'm tired of hearing how Obama is going to draw down US troops Afghanistan and then hearing actually there will be a large residual force left there. I'm tired of an administration that doesn't want to explain to the public what is the long term plan after cruise missle bombings. Does the intensity of the bombing intensify to further degrade Asaud's capabilities. What is the long term objective.

And I dread to think what happens if Israel says Iran has crossed the red line and Israel uses atomic weapons to destroy Iran's nuclear capabilities because convential weapons can't destroy this capability. Is this action morally irresponsible and requires a response to punish the Israelis. Not likely. Right.
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Old September 1st, 2013, 04:55 PM
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I think the numbers of dead have come from several sources, including the UN inspectors.

You bring up many good questions, which I'm not sure of the answers, including the president.

I can't talk about Afghanistan.

One good question I have not heard much of is, where are we getting the money to pay for this one time strike? One missile is one million dollars a piece.

I don't know why the president doesn't just strike the leader with a drone. It's not like he hasn't done it before.

Another thing is where are those on here who called Bush a warmonger, killer, murderer? All I hear on here is crickets.
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Old September 1st, 2013, 07:33 PM
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The USS Nimitz battle group is moving into a position where it can conduct air strikes. Source

I served in Nimitz back in the early 1980s as a nuclear propulsion plant operator.
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 10:01 PM
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Dave...as a Navy guy, you will appreciate this,.one of my summer jobs when I was a teenager was to cut the lawn of retired Admiral Thomas Charles Hart...when he found out I was interested in attending West Point, he tried to convince me to attend Annapolis ....if I knew then, what I know now, I would have taken him up for his assistance...he was always very nice to me and was a very low key and humble

My son the Air Force F-15 pilot tells me as part of their F-35 training they practice on land, how to land an F-35 Air Force version on a Naval carrier (not to good on the landing gear)
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 11:42 PM
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I was solicited by both Annapolis and West Point when in high school, after I attended American Legion Boy's State at SUNY Morrisville and had also garnered awards from the Elks, DAR, and a couple other big groups for being a youth leader in school and in my community. All the academies had cadet representatives at the campus when we were there and they were looking for candidates. Unfortunately my eye sight wasn't good enough to pass the physical standards at the time. They assured us getting an appointment 'would not be a problem'. I also wonder 'what if'? If only there had been laser eye surgery back then.

One of the perks of being on a carrier is being able to go up to an observation catwalk on the island and watch flight ops. Night Ops was the best, especially with the afterburner cat launches.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 12:27 AM
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Dave...I was in your "neck" of the woods (Maxwell AFB) School of Advance Air and Space Studies ("Col" College) to see my son receive his PhD this past June...Since 911 the program has expanded to include not only future General Staff Officers of every Branch of our Service and International allies but also representatives of the alphabet intelligence agencies who for a year, learn to "appreciate and consider the immense complexities of the world in which we operate" and work together as a team to offer our political leadership the best course of action in any given situation
I came away that day feeling very confident that Our Country is in good hands in terms of thinking thru the crtical thinking process before we become involved in conflict...every military officer in the school has had at least two tours of duty in combat zones so they have real war experience
Funny, when I visited West Point as a senior in high school, I attended a Bob Knight practice which included a point guard by the name of Mike "K" (Duke coach today)...one practice was enough to convince me that West Point might not be the "right" place for me...if I had came out of high school one year later, I could have been in the first class at Vassar to include males...I knew I could make the Vassar basketball team srarting 5
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:04 AM
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Another thing is where are those on here who called Bush a warmonger, killer, murderer? All I hear on here is crickets.
Then you haven't been listening. I'm right here. Bush is a warmonger, killer, murderer and clearly a war criminal. So are Cheney and Rummy. They belong in the dock at the Hague.

If Obama does what he's threatening absent a UN mandate, which he clearly won't get, we will once again be in serious violation of international law, and I'm against it. Whatever we do, and whoever we shoot at, it will not be in self defense according to international law. Of course, we're the United States, and far too often we administer our own rough justice despite all treaties and conventions. But we sure do scream when others violate these standards.

I'm a progressive but I'm not a sheep. For me, this is not a partisan issue.

So I'm not sure what your point is.

Recently we went to a music festival founded by Pete Seeger. Pete led the group in a song I haven't heard for a long time, "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" Pete said we need to sing it again, because we still haven't learned.
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Old September 4th, 2013, 03:49 PM
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Then you haven't been listening. I'm right here. Bush is a warmonger, killer, murderer and clearly a war criminal. So are Cheney and Rummy. They belong in the dock at the Hague.

If Obama does what he's threatening absent a UN mandate, which he clearly won't get, we will once again be in serious violation of international law, and I'm against it. Whatever we do, and whoever we shoot at, it will not be in self defense according to international law. Of course, we're the United States, and far too often we administer our own rough justice despite all treaties and conventions. But we sure do scream when others violate these standards.

I'm a progressive but I'm not a sheep. For me, this is not a partisan issue.

So I'm not sure what your point is.

Recently we went to a music festival founded by Pete Seeger. Pete led the group in a song I haven't heard for a long time, "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" Pete said we need to sing it again, because we still haven't learned.

I was actually not talking to you. I know, or at least I think I know how you feel.

I just heard that the committee just voted yes to yet again get involved in the Middle East.

There sure are a lot of what if's out there.

For those who live across the pond. I am glad that you have leaders who listen. I guess we don't have. I will be checking my reps to see how they voted.
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Old September 4th, 2013, 06:35 PM
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I was actually not talking to you. I know, or at least I think I know how you feel.

I just heard that the committee just voted yes to yet again get involved in the Middle East.

There sure are a lot of what if's out there.

For those who live across the pond. I am glad that you have leaders who listen. I guess we don't have. I will be checking my reps to see how they voted.
Hi Luanne

Yes our PM reiterated again today that the UK will NOT get involved this time. You never know things could change but the that view is prevailing.

I know the Senate is backing Obama but will the House??

We have an excellent, well respected Foreign Affairs Editor who reckons Assad is just a 'puppet' for his nasty brother and friends. What can you say to that??

BTW my MP voted against but that was no surprise.

Annie
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:21 AM
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Hi Luanne

Yes our PM reiterated again today that the UK will NOT get involved this time. You never know things could change but the that view is prevailing.

I know the Senate is backing Obama but will the House??

We have an excellent, well respected Foreign Affairs Editor who reckons Assad is just a 'puppet' for his nasty brother and friends. What can you say to that??

BTW my MP voted against but that was no surprise.

Annie
Good Evening Annie, I can honestly say I don't know anything about Syria, or it's leader. I can't figure out who the bad guys are. I am not sure anyone else knows either.

I am more worried about all the chemicals they are stock plying, and where they will go next. We are a boarder state, and it is pretty much wide open, so if tons of drugs can get through, then I figure it wouldn't be any trouble to get enough stuff to kill many Americans.

I also wonder what repercussions will happen, because of a strike from us.

One of our reps has voted no in the Senate, and I will have to wait on the rest to find out what they do.

I hope you are well.

Luanne
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:36 PM
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I can't figure out who the bad guys are. I am not sure anyone else knows either.
Even more difficult is figuring out who the good guys are, if any. It's the "if any" part that's scary and that should give us great pause.

I don't think there's much doubt about Assad being a legitimate face of evil. He surely is, but the question is about the rebels and how they may be morphing into what, for us, could easily become a "frying pan and fire" situation.

With untested friends, as with used cars, it's always caveat emptor.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 03:12 PM
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Well, I am so afraid history is repeating it's self.
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Old September 12th, 2013, 01:29 AM
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How do Christians reconcile the killing of any human being in any war? Are there asterisks in Jesus' 11th Commandment?
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Old September 12th, 2013, 06:31 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
How do Christians reconcile the killing of any human being in any war? Are there asterisks in Jesus' 11th Commandment?
It's more like, the Commandments are to be read and displayed, not followed.

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