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Old January 22nd, 2014, 03:11 PM
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Default The Popcorn Defense

On January 13, in Pasco County Florida, not all that far from Sanford, a retired cop, Curtis J. Reeves, Jr. went to the movies. On the way in he passed a sign on the door that said, "No Weapons." Unfazed, he entered with his .380 handgun.

He got into an argument with another patron over texting during the trailers. When the other guy turned around apparently Reeves was hit with popcorn kernels. Whereupon Reeves pulled his gun and killed Desert Storm veteran Chad W. Oulson.

Latest reports indicate that Reeves will claim that he is innocent of second degree murder because he was "Standing His Ground," and using lethal force in defense of a barrage of popcorn.

The victim's family and friends fear that Reeves will be acquitted because he's a former cop and "the fix is in." Plus, they point to the Zimmerman case and say, essentially, "This is Florida. He's white, so he's innocent."

But even Zimmerman's lawyer is quoted as saying that the Stand Your Ground excuse is pretty thin gruel in this instance.

So what do you think? I agree with those who say that he'll either be acquitted outright or the jury will hang and the prosecutors will not retry. Either way, Mr. Reeves walks.

Meanwhile, Florida continues to be a leader in capital punishment, although second degree murder does not qualify for the needle. Plus, of course, Mr. Reeves does not fit the profile for execution.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 05:04 PM
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I've been reading a lot about this case and I believe there is no way this guy will be acquitted. This was nothing like the Zimmerman case, other than someone was killed by CCW holder. Even if he is an ex-cop he was completely in the wrong. Anyone with a CCW permit is required to hold themselves to a higher standard and if there is "ANY" chance to "walk away" you must take it. He let the situation escalate from an annoying use of a cell phone during previews to a homicide. The ex-cop has severe anger issues and should not have a weapon and will likely spend the rest of his life in jail. At least I hope he does.

The vast majority of NRA members agree that the ex-cop was criminal and should be put in jail for murder.

Take care,
Mike (NRA member and CCW permit holder)
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 05:53 PM
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Mike--


Since you mention it, does having a license to carry a concealed gun trump a sign that says you can't have a gun in a store, theatre, etc.? Does it vary state by state?


Meanwhile, I'll seal both our predictions in a mayonnaise jar and store them on my porch until the verdict. We'll see what happens.


Anybody else care to weigh in?
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 07:25 PM
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If an establishment has a legal sign (definition of legal varies by state) then it is illegal to enter the establishment with a weapon either concealed or open carry. In Minnesota, legal is a sign that is 187 square inches in size and posted withing ten feet of all public entrances. Apartments and hotels cannot be designated "gun free" because they are considered residences.

In Minnesota, if you enter a posted business "and" the owner or employee asks you to leave, you must do so or you can be arrested for trespass. Your conceal carry permit is not revoked but multiple occurrences will probably get you in trouble at renewal time.

I think the predictions should be stored at a neutral location. I suggest Funk & Wagnalls' porch.

Take care,
Mike
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 08:45 PM
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Carson fans all. Or more precisely, McMahon.


Terry told me years ago that if we ever find ourselves in a restaurant, bar or other public building and we see someone other than a cop with a visible gun, we're leaving. Instantly. Get the check and get out of there with a quick word to the management as to why. If they have a right to carry the gun, we have the right to not be near them if we can help it. Seems reasonable. Of course it doesn't help with the hidden ones. Sadly, we're awash in guns here, with more illegal ones coming from these parts than almost anyplace else.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 08:52 PM
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The nut job former police officer indeed should get a one way trip to prison with no parole. I suspect he had issues during his active police duty time and probably should have been drummed off the force years ago. Those type of anger issues don't suddenly manifest themselves. His use of 'self defense' or the 'stand your ground' law is pathetic.

As a Benefactor Member of the NRA and a CCW holder for the past 30 years (I just renewed my concealed carry license until 2018) I also do not wish to push anyone's buttons if they don't want me on their premises while I am carrying. People who push that envelope are just being idiots. So, I don't patronize places of business that post signs about 'no guns'. It is their right as the business operator to do so, in my opinion, and thus I respect that. They just don't get my patronage. Frankly, signs like that are not common here in Alabama. And as always, a bad guy isn't going to obey a sign.

I also agree with Mike that I bear a legal burden by having a CCW, and should be held to a higher legal standard if I decide to use deadly force in a situation.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 11:36 PM
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If sometime before your license expires in 2018 you begin having "issues" that might make carrying a gun a bad idea, are you 100% sure that you'd be aware of that, and forsake your firepower? Or is it possible that you wouldn't even know it, or that you'd lie to yourself about the situation?


You claim that the ex-Florida cop probably had issues way back when he was on the force. If you're right, his superiors apparently didn't notice or didn't care. Theoretically, senior citizens who are retired will have much less oversight and evaluation regarding "going around the bend."


You take cruises, so apparently that's one business that you're willing to patronize without a gun. At least I hope so.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AR View Post
Carson fans all. Or more precisely, McMahon.


Terry told me years ago that if we ever find ourselves in a restaurant, bar or other public building and we see someone other than a cop with a visible gun, we're leaving. Instantly. Get the check and get out of there with a quick word to the management as to why. If they have a right to carry the gun, we have the right to not be near them if we can help it. Seems reasonable. Of course it doesn't help with the hidden ones. Sadly, we're awash in guns here, with more illegal ones coming from these parts than almost anyplace else.
That is why I am not an advocate of open carry. There are people who get nervous if they see a gun and there is no reason to make someone unduly nervous. I personally believe that people who do "legal" open carry are, in most instances, trying to attract attention and/or make a statement rather than personal protection. They are also painting a big target on themselves in the event someone is going to do harm. Who's the first person the bad guy is going to take out? The person with the 45 strapped to their hip.

Take care,
Mike
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Old January 24th, 2014, 07:34 PM
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Hang 'em high.

I think open carry will just lead to more body armor and firearm escalation on the part of the bad guys. If overkill is good, even more overkill must be better.

Think cops will tell you one of the easiest ways for them to die is to advertise that they are cops when off duty.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 11:31 AM
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That is why I am not an advocate of open carry. There are people who get nervous if they see a gun and there is no reason to make someone unduly nervous.
Take care,
Mike

Mike,
I absolutely can't argue with this point of view in the context you present it. But it obviously doesn't help in cases of those who shouldn't have concealed guns, as represented by the Florida shooter. I find it telling that so far Dave Beers has no response to my post #7 in this string, and I happen to think the issue is a big deal.

When she was in her mid-80s my mother-in-law got her drivers license renewed by mail for a five-year term (ironically, also in the state of Florida). A year or two later she announced that she no longer had "any business" driving a car. She put it in the garage and never drove again. Bravo, gramma, but many people don't have your self-awareness.

This is an important point when it comes to guns, simply because gun advocates continually claim that a big part of the problem is the mental health issue, and that if we could keep guns away from the mentally challenged, it would go a long way to solving the problem.

And yet, I'd be willing to bet you a nice dinner on your next trip to Washington that if anybody proposed mental screenings every year or two years for gun carriers over 60, the NRA would go nuts. There's a big difference between theory and practice, and society continues to pay the price.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 02:55 PM
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Mike,
I absolutely can't argue with this point of view in the context you present it. But it obviously doesn't help in cases of those who shouldn't have concealed guns, as represented by the Florida shooter. I find it telling that so far Dave Beers has no response to my post #7 in this string, and I happen to think the issue is a big deal.

When she was in her mid-80s my mother-in-law got her drivers license renewed by mail for a five-year term (ironically, also in the state of Florida). A year or two later she announced that she no longer had "any business" driving a car. She put it in the garage and never drove again. Bravo, gramma, but many people don't have your self-awareness.

This is an important point when it comes to guns, simply because gun advocates continually claim that a big part of the problem is the mental health issue, and that if we could keep guns away from the mentally challenged, it would go a long way to solving the problem.

And yet, I'd be willing to bet you a nice dinner on your next trip to Washington that if anybody proposed mental screenings every year or two years for gun carriers over 60, the NRA would go nuts. There's a big difference between theory and practice, and society continues to pay the price.
AR:

My permit has to be renewed every five years. No, there is no psychological testing included in the renewal process. Renewal is based on past issues. Any mental health problems, drug or alcohol abuse or felony and gross misdemeanor convictions. Especially those relating to violent behavior such as spousal abuse or assault.

You cannot deny something based on what "may" happen. If that was the case every person would be denied a drivers license. It's possible they could get Alzheimer's, Epilepsy, mental illness...etc within the valid time frame of the license.

My own opinion is that every person over the age of 55 should have to take a road test in order to renew their license. AARP has a fit when this is brought up. I have first hand experience on what an elderly driver can do when they can no longer make good driving choices. "Gladys" severely injured my mother and Betty in 2003 when she was backing down the freeway and then made a sudden left turn onto a maintenance crossing. Gladys was 92.

At least (in Minnesota) you have to go to a CCW class and show proficiency with your weapon and knowledge of the laws in order to renew your CCW.

Take care,
Mike
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Old January 26th, 2014, 05:07 PM
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AR:

My permit has to be renewed every five years. No, there is no psychological testing included in the renewal process. Renewal is based on past issues. Any mental health problems, drug or alcohol abuse or felony and gross misdemeanor convictions. Especially those relating to violent behavior such as spousal abuse or assault.
Violent behavior should get the ticket pulled instantly, not when it comes up for renewal. I hear that computers are capable of making such matches if they're programmed to do so. And in my view, there should be psychological testing at renewal time, at least past a certain age.

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You cannot deny something based on what "may" happen. If that was the case every person would be denied a drivers license. It's possible they could get Alzheimer's, Epilepsy, mental illness...etc within the valid time frame of the license.
I don't suggest denying anything based on what may happen. I'm suggesting that the ticket be denied based on what has happened or is starting to happen psychologically (early onset Alzheimers and all the rest).

Quote:
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My own opinion is that every person over the age of 55 should have to take a road test in order to renew their license. AARP has a fit when this is brought up. I have first hand experience on what an elderly driver can do when they can no longer make good driving choices. "Gladys" severely injured my mother and Betty in 2003 when she was backing down the freeway and then made a sudden left turn onto a maintenance crossing. Gladys was 92.
I agree with you 100%, and I fault the AARP on their stand just as I fault the NRA. Every winter when we visit California we have lunch with a dear friend, now 95. When we arrive at his house and are ready to head for the restaurant, he always asks, "Who's driving, you or me?" I always volunteer instantly. They just renewed his license too.

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At least (in Minnesota) you have to go to a CCW class and show proficiency with your weapon and knowledge of the laws in order to renew your CCW.
Here's hoping that at least that much is true in all states.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 05:39 PM
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Violent behavior should get the ticket pulled instantly, not when it comes up for renewal. I hear that computers are capable of making such matches if they're programmed to do so. And in my view, there should be psychological testing at renewal time, at least past a certain age.



I don't suggest denying anything based on what may happen. I'm suggesting that the ticket be denied based on what has happened or is starting to happen psychologically (early onset Alzheimers and all the rest).



I agree with you 100%, and I fault the AARP on their stand just as I fault the NRA. Every winter when we visit California we have lunch with a dear friend, now 95. When we arrive at his house and are ready to head for the restaurant, he always asks, "Who's driving, you or me?" I always volunteer instantly. They just renewed his license too.



Here's hoping that at least that much is true in all states.
I'm not going to look up the CCW laws of every state but in Minnesota if you are convicted of a violent offense or are admitted to a mental health facility, drug/alcohol rehab program, or convicted of a felony, your CCW is immediately revoked. I imagine that is a fairly common condition for all states.

Take care,
Mike
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Old January 26th, 2014, 06:47 PM
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The fact is, humans, every human, is subject to fits of passion. The shooter in this case was apparently a stable, normal man. A retired police captain and corporate executive. Had he not been carrying a gun, the victim would have been yelled at, perhaps shoved or slapped, or maybe even punched.


The NRA and others want more white, middle-class people to carry guns (for some reason, they don't argue that young black men need to carry guns, even though statistically a person in that group is more likely to be a crime victim). To the extent they are successful in that campaign, the more cases like this we will see.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 08:00 PM
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If there is no gun, there is no temptation to use it.

Commercial airline pilots have a mandatory retirement age for a reason.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 08:57 PM
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The fact is, humans, every human, is subject to fits of passion. The shooter in this case was apparently a stable, normal man. A retired police captain and corporate executive. Had he not been carrying a gun, the victim would have been yelled at, perhaps shoved or slapped, or maybe even punched.


The NRA and others want more white, middle-class people to carry guns (for some reason, they don't argue that young black men need to carry guns, even though statistically a person in that group is more likely to be a crime victim). To the extent they are successful in that campaign, the more cases like this we will see.
The goal of the NRA is to have all Americans have the ability to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. They do not have a color preference. Colion Noir is one of their most outspoken proponents. His website is Mr Colion Noir | Concealed Carrier Firearms Aficionado

I think I'm now dropping out of this debate. The end game for a number of folks is that they want private ownership of guns outlawed and others who don't. Neither side's base ideology is going to change.

Take care,
Mike
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:12 AM
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I'm not aware of anything in the 2nd amendment that grants the right of gun ownership. It also does not prohibit regulation.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 01:48 PM
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I think I'm now dropping out of this debate. The end game for a number of folks is that they want private ownership of guns outlawed and others who don't. Neither side's base ideology is going to change.

Take care,
Mike

Surprised and disappointed in you Mike, because there are some of us who aren't interested in retreating into partisan corners, and I think you recognize that. Some of us are trying to find a reasonable middle ground that will stop the carnage. Why can't that be a meeting point?
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Old January 27th, 2014, 04:37 PM
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Surprised and disappointed in you Mike, because there are some of us who aren't interested in retreating into partisan corners, and I think you recognize that. Some of us are trying to find a reasonable middle ground that will stop the carnage. Why can't that be a meeting point?
The definition of "middle ground" and "reasonable" are very different. What I see as middle ground, and I am more moderate than many gun owners, is probably your idea of "not enough". Based on your comments on gun ownership my perception of what you want is a country similar to Great Britain or Australia. No private ownership of handguns. Shotguns only, but only shotguns with a maximum capacity of two rounds, and they cannot be kept in your home.

My ideas are far different from that and we can spin "what ifs" until the cows come home and I don't believe it's going to change either of our core beliefs.

I do appreciate that you do take the time to discuss the subject and not just throw in a one liner or irrelevant zinger like many others do.

Take care,
Mike
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:39 PM
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The definition of "middle ground" and "reasonable" are very different. What I see as middle ground, and I am more moderate than many gun owners, is probably your idea of "not enough". Based on your comments on gun ownership my perception of what you want is a country similar to Great Britain or Australia. No private ownership of handguns. Shotguns only, but only shotguns with a maximum capacity of two rounds, and they cannot be kept in your home.

My ideas are far different from that and we can spin "what ifs" until the cows come home and I don't believe it's going to change either of our core beliefs.

I do appreciate that you do take the time to discuss the subject and not just throw in a one liner or irrelevant zinger like many others do.

Take care,
Mike

Well, your perception is a little off. My position is that I want to severely reduce the carnage, not do away with guns. I have friends who are serious collectors, one who collects everything from the civil war onward and keeps them in lockers at his house. I have no problem with that, and I even enjoy his explanations of how these old weapons work. They're all in working order and we've been known to take some of them outside where we try to hit a target. Of course, in truth, the older weapons make me ponder the "state of the art" in the days when the second amendment was written.


So I want you to understand that my goal is to reduce the death and destruction. Guns are a primary means to that death and destruction, so obviously I believe that reasonable regulation is necessary. I am not a Pollyanna and I realize that there will never be a ban on gun ownership. So you're dead wrong about that. I turned in my Don Quixote helmet decades ago. But I sure do favor universal background checks, limitations on "bullet holder" size (no more semantic arguments, thanks), and certainly a serious limitation on semi-automatic rifles.


There was another multiple homicide/suicide the other day at a shopping mall near here. Young kid, 19 I think. Within hours I received two e-mails from dear friends in Europe who heard the reports "near Washington" and wrote to be sure we were OK. In both notes there was an obvious subtext wondering what the hell is going on over here.


As I've said in other contexts, very few people who post on this board care one little bit what people in other countries think about anything. To them, we're the USA and we can do no wrong.


Except that we can and we do. And one thing we do wrong is guns. And it's not unpatriotic to say so.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:49 PM
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I think the vast majority of Americans are moderate. It is the crackpot extremists we need to watch out for.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 07:49 AM
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May 2nd, 1967 was an interesting day for advocates of 2nd ammendment rights..then Gov Reagan quickly passed an interesting piece of legislation. The strongest supporters of gun restrictions live in the inner cities where gun violence is rampant

I have a musican friend that lost his 8 year old daughter in the Newton School incident ..changes one's perspective of the issue

The Travon Martin verdict sent cold shudders down my back in respect to living in the deep South with the Stand Your Ground selective enforcement and application

Mike, I grew up in upstate New York and went deer hunting with my Dad every fall..he kept his hunting rifle and 4-10 shotgun locked up in the barn...would never allow a gun in the house ..my big brother has been a card carrying member of the NRA for a long as I can remember and lives in Maine...you should see the looks he gets from Maine residents that don't know him during hunting season...there is an hypocrisy along racial lines

The NRA " face" Wayne LaPierre (sp) does not help the issue from a PR perspective...very powerful lobbying block
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Old February 10th, 2014, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
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The goal of the NRA is to have all Americans have the ability to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. They do not have a color preference.
Take care, Mike


Mike, the NRA is able to speak for itself. The organization has not been silent about the Treyvon Martin shooting.


It also isn't silent about some American's rights to carry firearms on their person.


It's a fact that Treyvon might not be dead had he been carrying a gun that night.


There's a reason the NRA won't say that, and I get that you're sensitive about it.
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