Ah yes.. the old "you must work for the cruise lines argument".
I you had READ the thread, rather than just reading into it you'd have seen these comments.....
quoted from a previous post of mine in this thread.... As much as I wonder about how RCI onboard staff handled the situation afterwards, I'd also have to wonder why it took the security staff so long to get there that allowed people to be beaten so badly.
As a note of interest ... I once witnessed a somewhat comparable situation on a Carnival cruise. A couple I was playing Blackjack with in the casino, started to argue, and the situation was getting quite verbally abusive. They were told to leave the casino.
The next day, I saw the wife walking around, obviously badly beaten, so I followed up and asked about the situation. I was told that indeed the domestic dispute had turned violent, and security had been called. They said the man involved had been taken to a different cabin, guarded all night, and then put off the ship that morning.
I thought it sounded like they handled the situation correctly. However, it later became obvious that I had been fed a line, as later that night I saw the man, who had supposedly been put off the ship, in a couple of the lounges.
The cruise line wouldn't have likely told me anything except they probably didn't want to be seen stonewalling "the press". I did follow up afterwards with a letter expressing my dismay
Another quote from a previous post in this thread RCI itself went through a period recently where alot of damage was being done by teens on some holiday cruises. They instituted a curfew on their ships for partiuclar age groups.
I have no idea if these curfews are still in place, but if they could restrict passengers under a certain age to their cabins, one would think they could restrict passengers displaying violence to other passengers as well
Another quote from me earlier in this thread... No question in my mind that RCI didn't handle the situation well. Particularily not on following up with the injured people on their condition. And also with the "dance around" they seemed to receive about what the cruise line legally can or cannot do
All very ingratiating comments about the cruise lines huh?
As to the comment about confining all parties involved to their cabins, this was a question I raised earlier, quoted below. Until now I haven't seen anyone else comment on it, or suggest it could have been the thing to do.
If Party A reports an unprovoked vicious attack, and Party B claims Party A struck first. Should everyone concerned by put under arrest until the details can be sorted out, and the truth be found?
Anybody can post anything on these message boards. I could anonymously post that I had a friend who witnessed these events and saw the "victims" throw a drink in the face of an innocent woman who then took to defending herself.
But for Bunny, since I didn't see it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. READ that again. Because I didn't see it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. What it does mean is I won't judge one way or another because I don't even have the capability to look at the person's eyes who is telling me what happened to gain some semblance of credibility. I don't have the ability to hear voice inflections. I don't have the ability to watch expressions. The only thing I have is what somebody posted on a message board.
FYI - Michael Sheehan is presently in Pt Canaveral for the inaugural cruise of Mariner of the Seas. Another poster received an auto-reply from his email stating such. I certainly hope he does call you back. I truly hope the ball is finally rolling at RCI. Lets all hope that they will make the necessary changes to ensure something like this never ever happens again, and if it does they would know how to deal with it correctly, effectively and with the utmost respect and compassion towards the victims.
"Until now I haven't seen anyone else comment on it, or suggest it could have been the thing to do.
If Party A reports an unprovoked vicious attack, and Party B claims Party A struck first. Should everyone concerned by put under arrest until the details can be sorted out, and the truth be found?"
Sorry if my earlier response wasn't clear. Although I think the above remark actually clouds the true issue (especially given the eyewitness accounts - it's hard to strike back when you're on the floor curled in the fetal position while four people are kicking you), why not err on the side of caution and detain all parties?
I don't know where you think that "certain people that voice their opinions based on the sole purpose of securing benefits from corporations that hand them out" has any merit in the topic of this thread. I personally don't have any connection with any cruiseline and yes, I would still cruise on any Royal Caribbean ship. I have personally received e-mails from the person who was attacked, I don't think many here are questioning that this horrible crime did happen. There is no doubt things could of been done differently and we've yet to hear from anyone in athority from the cruiseline, and we most likely won't at this point.
My main concern was with how it was handled after, and what steps Royal Caribbean did or did not take to keep things under control. Yes, these kinds of incidents do happen on land and on cruise ships, hopefully the security personell and staff can learn from this and be able to deal with it in the future.
I know we'd all like to think we can go on vacation and leave this kind of thing at home, but thats just a dream, its out there unfortunately. Also the "laws" are somewhat different when out at sea, thats something I really don't know anything about and would like to know what is the responsibility of the Captain of his ship, actually is under these kinds of circumstances? Us there a set standard as to how to deal with this while on a cruiseship?? May-be in the future, there will be more secuity people on cruise ships??
Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!
While this is not related directly to the present discussion, I thought that I might pass it along.
We recently returned on a cruise out of Galveston on 26 Oct on the Elation, and there were a large number of gay and lesbian passengers aboard As far as I can tell, everyone on the cruise got along well, and there were no problems of any kind among the passengers.
When you want to cruise with friendly people, cruise with Texans!
Donna, I know all cruise ships have their crimes and such, but I truly believe that RCL dropped the ball on this one. Do any of us know why? At the moment no.... not the victims, not the witnesses. I am sure you heard from the victim that they asked repeatedly for security to be called, BEFORE the attack happened. No one was called at all. RCL only became reactive once the victim was on the floor with his head being stomped on. Also, where was security when the second attack happened outside of the disco?????????? Remember - the first attack already happened. You would think security would have kept a better watch on the attackers before they were able to attack again. Again, RCL dropped the ball.
I do have a big problem with the way RCL handled this. This was a hate crime pure and simple. Folks were attacked because they are different. If this happened on land, we would all know about it by now. But since the victims gave RCL the benefit of the doubt, nothing is in the media......yet.
And there have been many instances of folks committing crimes on cruiseships. Most of those folks have been detained in their cabins, or put off of the ship. In this instance RCL allowed the attackers to roam the ship on the last day, where they could run into those who were attacked. Granted, RCL stated that the attackers were being watched constantly - but did the victim know this? NO - NOT AT ALL. RCL corporate stated that they said the victims should have been informed of this. They weren't. That is a serious breakdown of communications - one that shouldn't have occurred. Can you imagine the feeling if you were the victim actually seeing your attacker roam the ship after you were attacked? I couldnt imagine the fear in him......
I also wonder if more things would have been done from the corporate side if they weren't so consumed with the launch of the Mariner of the Seas.
With all the post of people not going to cruise with RCCL , I shouldn't have a problem booking a cruise. Of course some people would judge me as a " Hilljack " because I'm from Ohio since they are good at saying and judgeing people from Oklahoma as being " drunk Rednecks " or trailer trash.
Donna - just in reply to your posting - my thoughts were directed to the features editor - after reading his comments it was evident that he panders to cruise lines.
I agree with you - RCCL did drop the ball. The features editor brings up the situation of a hand being cut off as punishment for stealing a loaf of bread - well this is the US - he says he doesn't want to condem the cruise line - well the employees are the cruise line, the management controls teh cruise line. This was a hate crime & the way the line has handled it just leaves the window open a bit too much for something like this to happen again.. Its called zero tolerance.
He says he supports the victim - all well & good - but unless something is done - immediately(via PR) & eventualyy (legally) this will just turn into another non event,
The features editor suggested reading comprehension lessons - I think he needs to rethink his priorities.
I have to put my two cents in......I DETEST the phrase "hate crimes"......just because you are of a particular ethnic group or you have a particular sexual preference somehow the crime against you is more awful then a crime that would be against me, a caucasion, heterosexual person?
To me any crime against ANYONE is a HATE crime.....People don't do things against you if they LIKE you............does "LIKE CRIME" make sense?????
Although the term "Hate Crime" may not be as specific as it needs to be, hate crimes are crimes against individual people based on a broad brush perception of a group to which they may belong or may be perceived to belong. The goal of hate crimes is not only to attack the individual but to instill fear and alarm in others belonging to said group. These crimes are attempting to define, terrorize and control an entire group of people by attacking a few. They are often perpetrated by people who think of themselves as powerless in their own lives. It gives them sadistic peasure and a feeling of control and importance by attacking others.
These actions are much different than crimes against individuals one may encounter in one's social circle.
Even if you don't like the term, it is needed to explain the enormity of such crimes.
I'd like to take a moment to thank those who have been so supportive of me in the past week(s). The outpouring of concern goes well beyond words.
Yes I am the primary male victim in what occurred on board. At this time, I choose to not make claims or statements in regard to this topic for obvious reasons.
Admittedly, it has been disheartening to see diversions from the subject at hand and dubious remarks in regard to Matthew's claims. He, indeed, was my primary eye witness and I am forever grateful and in debt to what he has done for me in the past two weeks.
Thank you again, so much, and I can only hope that a favorable outcome will be the result.
I have been following this story with interest on this board and others. My heart goes out to the victims and I hope justice will be served. However, I had to sit back and think carefully about the emotional outburst of outrage against RCCL. As a past & future cruiser on these ships, how do I feel about this situation? The actual circumstances & punishment due is not up to me to decide. I was not there, nor do I have any relationship with anyone involved. So, I have to look what information that has been provided on these boards. Some people have practically accused RCCL of being responsible for this attack occuring. That is insane! No one can predict the actions of others. Did RCCL respond appropriately? I cannot stress enough.....we DO NOT know what they were told by the alleged attackers. They could have produced their own "eye witnesses". Nothing justifies their actions, but it is possible that the story they told could have really confused the issue. RCCL IS NOT judge & jury. I'm sure security has responded many times on these ships to "bar room brawls" or "night club fights"...whatever you want to call them. Once these situations are under control, that is probably the end of it. It was not up to RCCL to decide this was a deeper issue of "hate crime" and lock up the suspects. If the accused did not present themselves as a further threat, then having security watch them until they could leave the ship was appropriate. It may not be what everyone else desired, but the facts are....the accused did not further harass their victims or attack them or follow them around. I know, many of you will say what if.......????? We can play what if all day, but if we try to imagine every possible scenario, we could live our lives paralyzed with fear. I truly don't believe RCCL is guilty of any wrong doing in this situation. Some people even complained that the Captain or other upper management didn't personally check on the victims. I'm sure many injuries occur on ships and I don't think it is the Captains responsibility to console everyone.
Lastly, I can't help but wonder if all these posts, letters, faxes and attempts to get this story in the media could end up hurting this case. Certainly, the victims are trying to get appropriate punishment imposed on these attackers. A good defense attorney could take all this information and say "look....a campaign was launched against my clients before charges were even filed!" Everyone is upset that RCCL won't publicly acknowledge that this was a hate crime. I believe that to do so at this point, could seriously jeopardize the victim's case.
I know many of you will respond in anger to my post. I do not condone what happened to the victims. I do hope justice is served. I do not find fault in RCCL (and no, I do not work for them). Do we really want it to reach a point that when a fight or other incident occurs onboard everyone involved gets detained until they can be put off the ship? Even the innocent party? I don't think so.
This is a serious issue. It is one that needs to be dealt with in court. Not on the cruise ship. Bottom line is....their actions (or lack of) in this sitution did not bring further harm to the victims.
MFC, you act as though this assault was an "oops" ... "I will be better from now on, so don't spoil the rest of my cruise by keeping me under control."
So the person who *beat* someone should be allowed to roam freely??
If I were the person pummeled, it would make me sick to even see these people on ship.
Yes, the ship and its captain are not judge and jury, but a cruise ship is a micro-justice system in which neither party has a way off. Sometimes, the law ... or at least *control* must be administered.
Who shouted epithets? Who beat the other?
The answer has been very clear.
I don't think this is an Royal Carribean problem ... hell, I would have more expected it on Carnival with the homophobia I've encountered from its staff.
But it comes down to the point that *ANY* cruise passenger should be able to dine with, dance with, and enjoy their experience with, anyone of their choosing -- regardless of sex, age, sexual orientation or race.
It's time for a "no tolerance policy" on ALL ships for this kind of prejudice-generated hostility!
Finally, you have got to be *kidding* that you think press coverage will hurt this issue!?!
As a former newspaper editor, I can tell you that bringing the light to *any* issue via news coverage brings both positive and negative results. But the light being shone usually illuminates the brightest and darkest of these equally, and invariably results in growth of us as a culture.
We still only have one side of the story. Would the gay posters here be so sure that the other party is guilty if the alledged person assaulted was'nt gay? I wonder. Gay ...straight...inbetween......I would like all the facts before condemning anyone. Just my opinion. An opinion obviously in the minority but I am sure the posters here can respect others opinions as they expect respect for their opinions. Thank you.
(sigh) I am not saying that the "other side of the story" would make a difference to any of us. I am not trying to justify their actions or cast doubt on the validity of this story. I was addresssing RCCL's actions here. What can't anyone accept the fact that RCCL was dealing with more than just the victim and his eye witness? The accused could have created a story that rivaled the victim's. No one wants to acknowledge that RCCL's action did not bring further injury to anyone. I read on the other board that the victim isn't very confident that the FBI will be able to carry this any further. This could be because of the laws of international waters or it could be because the truth is confusing. I really shouldn't speculate on that.
If you feel you must boycott RCCL, so be it. Others have said, we are all entitled to our opinion. I wish there was a way to prevent crimes of this nature & others from happening. I think some people are more interested in "taking on" a big corporation than they are in making sure the guilty are properly punished.
Bar fights are always difficult especially when other issues are involved either as alleged motivating factors or otherwise.. I expect there will be a civil suit, made difficult by jurisdictional issues.. I hope the incident will cause the cruiseline to review & update it's general security policies.
Re: Re: A warning to all RCI/Celebrity cruisers!!!
I'm thinking of the black man that was dragged behind a pick-up truck until he was dead and the young man that was hanged on a barbed wire fence just because he was gay. Both of these incidents happened in recent years. No matter what either of them may have said or done, they certainly didn't deserve the crimes that were committed upon them.
I don't understand how these murderer's comments may somehow make it okay. To me it is exactly the same.
Rick, you seem to be one of the few that understand what I am thinking. No one is trying to make light of the situation or say the alleged attackers were justified. I am as concerned as anyone to see how this plays out. But, in all honesty, I cannot simply accept what I have read on these boards as fact and then proceed to cancel my cruises and accuse RCCL of wrongdoing in this situation. This does not mean I am cold-hearted, or unsympathetic or prejudice or any other word that may be thrown my way. I can't help but wonder, if the accused attacker had been the frequent poster on these boards (instead of the victim) would everyone be rallying behind them to prove their innocence?
As I have stated prior, I am booked on the 12-22-03 sailing of the Monarch over Christmas. We are gay and quite concerned about this issue. I do not plan on cancelling my cruise but I do feel that R.C.C.L. needs to have a stronger policy in place.
If a person went on a shooting spree onboard, would they wait for a couple of days before confining the shooter? Would they wait for stateside authorities to take charge? Would they wait for the advice of the main office in Miami? I highly doubt it!
Bashing in someone's head with a deadly weapon is no better. The person should have been apprehended immediately, period. Then the authorities could sort out the whole story in due time.
To this date, Mr. Sheehan has not returned my many calls to him about R.C.C.L. 's policy regarding hate crimes and this event. Even if he cannot comment on the specific case, he should call as a P.R. effort, if nothing else. I think that it is wrong that he fails to return these calls. It's one thing to make a mistake, but yet another to ignore the concerns of their customer base.
While I really do support Steve and Matt, I do not think a boycott will really help because; first the boycott will not be noticed as most people are unaware of this issue and continue to cruise with them. Therefore there will be no economic impact. And secondly I am sure that this can and may happen on ay ship as it seems to be something lacking in maritime law to cover it.
Personally, I think bringing the issue to light so that people are more aware of the issue is a much more effective way of accomplishing things. This is a world wide problem, not just something confined to this one ship. Hate is something we all encounter in one way or another everyday in our lives.
To this date, Mr. Sheehan has not returned my many calls to him about R.C.C.L. 's policy regarding hate crimes and this event. Even if he cannot comment on the specific case, he should call as a P.R. effort, if nothing else. I think that is wrong that he fails to return these calls. It's one thing to make a mistake, but yet another to igmore the concerns of their customer base.
Chuck on that we agree. Unfortunately, I doubt you will get that call returned.
Bunny, I have more fear in driving my car than sailing with RCCL/Celebrity. Nothing I have read here changes my mind on that.