Finally some reasonable people have chimed in on this subject.
In civilized society, advocating violation of contracts is not considered "reasonable".
I have read this thread with amazement that some people consider small things (like bringing a bottle onboard) to be a statement about a persons integrity and morality.
Small actions definitively indicate small aspects about someone's integrity and morality. Small aspects are indicators of large aspects.
I certainly hope those that stand in complete judgement of others are oh so careful in their everyday life to make sure that they never, ever violate any little bitty rule or policy. Must get very tedious.
What gets tedious is reading rationalization after rationalization of dishonesty. Maybe more of the vast majority of folks who live up to the agreements they enter-into should be more consistent about speaking-up about how outrageous such disregard for honesty is. However, most of them are busily working harder to make ends meet, because they're not taking advantage of leniency and benevalence of others.
I am the sort of person that abides by rules. I do not abide by only those rules that I agree with or find convenient. If I am going to CHOOSE to put myself in a situation (a cruise ship that prohibits bringing alcohol aboard), then I am also choosing to abide by the policies as they are stated in the contract I have received.
I do feel that "small things" are an indicator of a person's values. After all, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior! If one will ignore "small" policies, I find it reasonable to expect that that same person will also alter or ignore "big things." (By the way, where does one draw the line bewteen big and small things?)
I have no doubt that there are people who only bring a couple of bottles of booze on board and are then "perfect" cruise passengers. However, I also have no doubt that there are also many people who bring booze on, share soda cards,save chairs despite the cruise line's policy, steal towels, cut in lines and wait in the lobby waiting for their color to be called (despite being asked not to!), jumping in line ahead of those of us who followed the requested procedure.
Take it out of the realm of a cruiseship, and I would bet many of these people also drive 10 miles over the speed limit, call in sick to work on days they are not sick, pay child's fare at the movies for a child "just turned" 13 and would not give back the difference if a cashier gives them the wrong change.
Perhaps you see all of these things as "little." I don't. I am a teacher and I see the attitude that your children are growing up with . . . "you can't tell me no, I'm not hurting anyone, etc." I have had friends die in accidents when someone couldn't stop because they were speeding, and I have had to work late, missing dinner with my family, because someone couldn't show up for work due to a sunny day. I have seen businesses go under because customers did everything they could to cheat the establishment.
I'm not perfect, but when I find I have done something wrong, I strive to fix it. I am not trying to put anyone down, but I just wanted to give those of you who think I must be a "rule monger" a bit more perspective on why I feel the way I do.
As Mr "Pull-a Quote" could you please not keep quoting one line out of what I think, and reply to it as if it was all I had to say. Then you read another line, create another post and go quoting again.
For someone who appears so particular regarding whats right, this is so wrong as communication and flow of conversation is lost
Big difference with you and me buddy. I read the persons complete gripe and reply to the whole gripe, I dont nit pick.
Oh yes. You think I cop out of how I feel or write, best laugh I've had all year.
Here's a guess, and just a guess, you are either an accountant or government tax employee or some similar employment.
Someone who does not, or is used to thinking out of the box and is ruled by rules, boxes ticked, tick another box to prove previous boxes ticked. A black pen was used to fill in the form, and all presented in capital letters.
Am I right? Your a bureaucrat. Must be for these opinions
Oh yes Ships are floating hotels, yes the Captain sails it with his crew. But for the "staff" they work to a person who holds the proud title of "Hotel Manager" and that is where clients direct complaints, unless its the Captains sailing skill
AshleyP - what you said makes sense. I disagree with you on the point that breaking smaller rules lead to breaking bigger rules. Someone who straddles a lane accidentally on the highway does not go on to become a bank robber. I think we all have the ability to evaluate our actions with respect to the law (if your parking meter expires you are in violation of parking bylaws vs. a felonious offense), and evaluate with respect to our conscience, and God.
Ya see, I'm the kinda guy that looks behind me, and if there's no one coming up, I play another ball. In my mind, I'm not hurting anyone, I'm not offending anyone, and no marshall has ever said anything but "good afternoon sir" as they see me do it. (Not just at my club, but any course). I'm also the kinda guy that never says anything to the group in front of me if they're taking too long. And because of this transgressive behaviour, am I likely to snap one day and run around the course like Rambo just because small (in your mind) violations lead to big ones?? Ummmm Nope!
DavidB, I don't think those kind of opinions are formed even in bureaucrats minds. I'm a (I know it's hard to tell) banker and to be successful as a banker (damn....l wish i was)you have to think outside the box. It is a criminal offense to write a cheque with insufficient funds. But hey, it happens, happens to all of us, happens when you've got hundreds of thousands or even millions in other holdings with the same bank - does that mean because the box wasn't checked with black pen we should report it to the police and encourage the payee to file charges. It often happens when it is done intentionally or happens often, but in the strict sense, we should do that even if you make a mistake and forget to transfer funds etc.
Even bureaucrats have a life (I think), so to be honest, I really don't know where that kind of opinion comes from!!
Well, the thing about breaking rules (beyond any moral implications) is that you might get caught. In this case, that means that you will be on your cruise for X number of days and nights without a "room bottle" as you wanted. And, if you are like some, this might significantly reduce your cruise enjoyment and/or increase its cost significantly.
I have no affiliations with any cruise line, or any part of the travel industry. In fact, as I'm retired, I have no affiliations with any industry. I just like to think that the time when I had to "sneak around" to have what I call a good time passed about 50 years ago, and for what I pay for a cruise, I deserve to go on a cruise line which I will fully enjoy without worring about breaking rules (whether from the moral or practical aspect). The way to do this is NOT to gripe about lines that do things I don't like. Those lines don't care what I (or you) think. The way to do it is to find a line whose policies you like, and book that line, and enjoy your cruise. If enough of us did that, and as a result did not book those lines with policies we don't like, those lines would re-think their position fairly fast!
Banker, its basic to where that opinion comes from. Okay forget employment,, but I think I'm right in this one re attitude regarding what people do for a living.
My point is based around people that see everything in B&W. The Rule is there, the ticket or brochure quoted it etc etc. "Achtung the rules must be followed".
Achtung is a throw away line as was the scentiment, buts that how policy bashers are perceived
Think they know everything, what they do is right and only they are right. Bully opinion, become more vocal, keep hitting targets, break them down, response declines. They win
For the sake of this board I am actually more concerned, that certain people who do not have the freedom to express their opinion 9-5 in their job, get brave and are taking their frustrations out on us. I will give you a wildcard, you are different my friend<g>
I don't think that small transgressions, such as playing another ball, will lead to felonies. My point is that if someone can bend/ignore the rules on "small" policies and get away with it, then perhaps they will continue to test other, "larger" policies until they decide that the risk/consequence outweighs the benefit. At what point do you decide that you are not just saving money, but are actually stealing from the company? Bringing on alcohol when prohibited? "Borrowing" a half empty bottle from the bar? Drinking half of a drink from the bar in your room and filling with water? None of these are felonies, but do they say something about the person involved? I believe so.
I don't think people do this kinda thing after actually making a risk/consequence assessment. I don't think people bringing sneaking booze on board are thinking to themselves.......
"hmmm, If I can smuggle this coconut rum on board, and get away with it, then I shall move on to nuke'ing everyone on the planet and setting up a new civilization of perfect people on this cruise ship, and even bicker (dressed up as James Bond with the shaken martini) can't stop me, moo ha ha!"
It's just not a big deal. It's not a planned out manipulative course of action. It's just a ..."hey, I wanna have a couple of coolies on the balcony before crashing!" type thought.
And this thread is about "penny pinchers" - it doesn't have anything to do with pinching pennies either. Why is it that I always get invited into the suites next to ours and they have fully stocked bars (of contraband). Oh, and the majority of our cruises have been RCCL, and these same disgusting people are in the diamond members departure lounge?? Shame on them
Folks, the whole "main line" cruise experience started "going south" when the lines stopped thinking of things like beverage service as services, and began to rely on them as profit centers. Ditto for art auctions, casino, tie in deals with port merchants, "optional" restaurants, and excursions. Some lines are actually making as much revenue from these "profit centers" as they are from fares. I have a running bet with several folks that we will see a cruise line offering free fares in the next few years, just to get guests onboard and into their captive market, wherein the money will be made from these profit centers. In the "olden days" of cruising in the 70's, right after the popularity of the "Love Boat" TV show sparked interest, soda, beer, and mixed drinks were offered at about 1/2 the price of these on land in restaurants and bars. No reason why not. The cruise lines pay less for the beverages than land based facilities in the US do. Not too much profit in it, but some. The reason for this service was to entice you to pay the fare and book the cruise.
Actually, the lines' reliance on profit centers other than fares (including bar revenue) has been a growing thing for maybe 15 years. But, until two years ago or so, there was a "safety valve" in the form of carry on beverages and bottles purchased in the ship's store and taken to the room. Then, many of the lines closed the "safety valve." Drinking and cruising have been historically connected, since the first true cruises began during prohibition as a way for folks to legally buy a drink outside US waters. People drink on cruises who seldom drink at other times. The fact that many major lines created captive markets with high prices has effected cruisers in a number of ways. People like me sought other lines without these restrictions. We paid a higher up-front fare, but no higher total after all the bar bills and bills for extras come in. Others understandably try to "cheat the system", with increasingly inventive ways to smuggle on that "room bottle." Others (mainly those who don't drink or don't drink much in any setting) have simply resigned themselves to a fairly "booze free cruise." Still others have become accustomed to bills for extras that are dangeriously close to the fare they paid.
There is one thing we all agree on (I hope). While we might confess that the lines have the right to do this, and we might differ on the morality of how some folks react, I don't think any of us really like what these lines are doing. As I've said, I dislike it so much I will not book these lines. And I fear that more joining me is the only way to stop a practice that no cruiser really likes.
Aren't you being just as self-righteous and judgemental as anyone else?? Seriously, I think this has discussion has been quite civil with a few excpetions. I may not agree with everyone, but I really appreciate those who add their opinions in a thoughtful, polite manner.
And as to posting on the company's dime, if I were at work, I would not dream of cruising the internet. However, at this point in my life, I am fortunate enough not to work, except for volunteering.
I personally cruise Radisson when that line has a 2 for 1 special. I've booked one Venice to Athens for less than $2000 pp. And, it is in a rather large suite, and it actually includes a free mini bar with soda and two liters of liquor, as well as drinks, beer, or wine with dinner. Soda is always free.And I can carry on any beverage I want from the ports. I like to sample local beer. And I almost never have any ship's bill at the end. No lines. No crowds. Tips included. Open dinner. The works. There are fully all inclusive options too, but they cost more usually, However Silversea has some cruises for as little as around $1500 pp. They are all inclusive as to all beverages, and also allow carry on (if anybody wants to). Now here, we are talking about suites from 250 to 350 square feet in size. We did the Panama Canal on the Radisson Seven Seas Voyager in a 300 squiare foot suite with a 100 square foot balcony for about $1750 pp per week. These are the basic cabins on these ships! Compare them to upgrades on Celebrity, RCCL or whomever you wish. You won't find a better deal, even without all the inclusions.
Want something cheaper? Last time I talked to Oceania, I was told that they have no carry on prohibition, and one can book a lesser (and cheaper) cabin on that line, though there are no included beverages. Their fares are about in line with HAL's.
Want something still cheaper? Last time I checked RCCL wouldn't allow carry ons, but would sell you a liter bottle of liquor from the ships store for your room. The duty free price is about $10. And they charge another $10 surcharge to allow you to use it in your room. But I don't care, as that same bottle sells for $23 in my hometown.
So there are ways to obtain a room bottle without violating rules, if you chose the line right. There are probably others that I just don't know about.
When this X-prize thing becomes successful, and Virgin Galactic takes off, and you pay $100,00 per person to go on a "space cruise", will it be penny pinching if I try to sneak a "road pop" on board.......just ta get a little cosmic buzz happenin? Ya know, "boldly go where no man has gone before"
Thanks Richard, I don't drink and wifey's a knock out (ooops, I mean knocked out) after 2 glasses of wine, but I wanted to know because that kind of policy would be indicative of a less "penny pinching" cruise line - hey there's one.....
Actually, funny you mentioned it, but we were seriously looking at the
Radisson Diamond but I thought the people on it might be a little to "hoitee toitee" - we like nice stuff but don't like being around people that show it. I always look like a bum (hmm - even when I dress up), I was just in Nassau last weekend at a jewellery store and bought a really nice pearl necklace and diamond bracelet and stuff and the store clerk asked me if I work on the ship and taking this back as a wedding gift?!?!
When my wife and I go without the apes even our cabin attendants come in and ask us if we're on our honeymoon!!
but thanks for the info, what is the crowd like on Radisson, (didn't like HAL and celebrity too much, Princess o.k., and even I was too hoitee toitee for Carnival)
Banker: What would make you say something like this? Do you really think that no one could possibly be in favor of honesty and integrity unless they had a personal financial motivation? Geez. Get a grip.
I'm not perfect, but when I find I have done something wrong, I strive to fix it.
Amen, Ashley. Enough is enough with people thinking expections of honesty and integrity apply only to other people. At the very least, shouldn't people be honest enough to admit their transgressions are transgressions, and not continually try to excuse their conduct?
could you please not keep quoting one line out of what I think
What makes you think you have a right to tell other posters how to present their views? Incredible.
And after all going on for eight paragraphs, you contributed nothing to the actual discussion. Seems to me that whenever someone cannot defend their views, they resort to attacking the poster or the wording or formatting of the messages. Keep to the subject, DavidB. Stop resorting to argumentum ad hominem.
Then to cap it off, you just restated your original assertion, not better defended than the first time you said it.
Bicker spends an inordinant amount of time posting to many, many websites.
Bicker spends about an hour a day on web sites, all of it on my own time. I work about eleven hours a day, and my boss is getting far more than his fair share.
It is amazing to see how readily some folks fabricate stories or outright lie whenever someone presses them on their indefensible positions. Despicable.
Folks, the whole "main line" cruise experience started "going south" when the lines stopped thinking of things like beverage service as services, and began to rely on them as profit centers. Ditto for art auctions, casino, tie in deals with port merchants, "optional" restaurants, and excursions. Some lines are actually making as much revenue from these "profit centers" as they are from fares.
Indeed, and that was unquestionably prompted by passenger demand for lower fares.
Actually, Radisson is known for offering some of the most casual and laid back cruises. There's zero "hoity toyty", snobs, or as I call them "$5000 millionaires! People are very nice on this line. One reason is that, well, they are nice. Another reason is they aren't subjected to lines, crowds, and nickel and diming, so they aren't walking around angry all the time. Food and service are world class. Some of the itineraries don't even have formal nights. Should a problem arrise, the staff will fix it. Go, I think you'll fit in great, and will "never go back."
It is entirely possible that the public wanted lower overall cruise costs. Not just lower fares, with so many add-ons that they were paying more than before! I suggest instead that the lower "fares" and the lines' increased reliance on onboard "probit centers" is a result of a marketing ploy wherein the lines can advertise low fares, then "gotcha!"
It is a marketing strategy that evidently is working. I prefer to pay lower prices and then pay as you go. This way I have the option of purchasing if I choose, rather than it being built into the cost. I know there is a large segment of the population that will not like this strategy as well, thankfully we have enough cruiselines out there to select the choice we like best.
Yes, Thomas, I am aware of your preferences that I'm sure many others share for "ala carte" cruising. And perhaps it works well for you. For me (and also many others) it does not work so well. I walk around all day with a soda in my hand, and much of the night with a beer in my hand. My wife drinks much bottled water due to a medical condition. And we tend to run up one heck of a ships' bill on an "ala carte" line.
But this thread is not about "ala carte cruising" vs more inclusive cruising. This thread is about ala carte cruises wherein all alternative sources of beverages are cut off by the ship, and how various cruisers deal with this. That's why I mentioned two reasonably priced ala carte lines above. One will allow you to carry on without sneaking (Oceania) and one will sell you a room bottle from the ships store at a very reasonable price (RCCL). There is no reason why non-inclusive, ala carte lines can't allow guests to find alternate sources to bar prices. They almost all did this until two years ago.
FamilyCruiser, thanks for the insight on Bicker, now looking at him in a new light and actually find the scenario quite sad if you spend your life and opinion somewhere in the "blue nowhere", and not with real people.
This is the only board I post on, at home on my dime and on my personal pc.
Open Question: If you could afford to cruise and have a suite, but decide to have an inside cabin. Is that penny-pinching?
If you had the money to eat every night in the surcharge restaurant, but eat at the buffet, is that penny-pinching?
Its about choice, lets not turn ordinary people into some sort of threat to society because they drink and get a deal outwith the ship!
Especially when the tone of the conversation was driven by a compulsive poster. Who thrives on reaction of others, thats cheap, thats penny-pinching re kicks in life